Evidence for God from Science

What makes them different?

PaulSacramento wrote:What makes them different?

well, as stated previously, they are not living creatures. they do not have a brain, they cannot make choices, and do not have instincts ingrained into their behavior.

If the spirit is simply breath, how do you address passage such as:
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I mean, what is the big deal of "piercing spirit" or the spirit being "blameless" ?

What about spiritual wisdom and understanding? Spiritual blessings? Spiritually disconcerned ?

Or:

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV)
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Seems that the spirit is more than just "breath".

jenna wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:What makes them different?

well, as stated previously, they are not living creatures. they do not have a brain, they cannot make choices, and do not have instincts ingrained into their behavior.

But they breath.

PaulSacramento wrote:If the spirit is simply breath, how do you address passage such as:
Hebrews 4:12, "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

I mean, what is the big deal of "piercing spirit" or the spirit being "blameless" ?

What about spiritual wisdom and understanding? Spiritual blessings? Spiritually disconcerned ?

Or:

1 Corinthians 2:11 (ESV)
11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Seems that the spirit is more than just "breath".

1) here it describes the body, spirit and soul being divided, and God knowing our very thoughts and intents.
2) it is saying almost the same thing thing here, that only God knows our true thoughts, other than the person who is thinking them. and only God knows God's true thoughts.

PaulSacramento wrote:

jenna wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:What makes them different?

well, as stated previously, they are not living creatures. they do not have a brain, they cannot make choices, and do not have instincts ingrained into their behavior.

But they breath.

yes they do, but not in the same way you and i do. they do not have lungs, or thoughts nor feelings in the same way that humans and animals do. i am sure this is actually leading somewhere, but i am not sure what it is you are trying to get me to say?

jenna wrote:there is a problem with this however. the bible tells us that the dead "know not anything" Ecc 9:5 . tell me, what would be the point of eternal torment if they dont even know they are suffering?

Read the context of that statement.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ESV)

They are fully aware of their suffering. They just know nothing about what is happening on earth. If you want more information about the state of the dead I suggest you read what Jesus said about the rich man who died in Luke 16.

http://legacy.esvbible.org/search/luke+16%3A19-31/

theophilus wrote:

jenna wrote:there is a problem with this however. the bible tells us that the dead "know not anything" Ecc 9:5 . tell me, what would be the point of eternal torment if they dont even know they are suffering?

Read the context of that statement.

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 ESV)

They are fully aware of their suffering. They just know nothing about what is happening on earth. If you want more information about the state of the dead I suggest you read what Jesus said about the rich man who died in Luke 16.

http://legacy.esvbible.org/search/luke+16%3A19-31/

this passage never once says they know nothing about what is happening on earth. it says they know nothing. period. tell me, do you believe loved ones go to heaven and are watching us from heaven? if you do, then you have just negated your own statement that the dead know nothing about what is happening on earth. remember, this is talking about ALL people, not just sinners.

and as far as the rich man, that was addressed in an earlier post.

jenna wrote:I do see your points, and i do agree with the possibility that after they are burned up, and will no longer be remembered. but again, you leave out verses like Ecc. 9:5 where it says the dead know not anything. if they know nothing, what is the point of eternal suffering? there is no point to it if they dont know it. there is also verses Psalm 146: 3-4, and 115:17. if the dead are in eternal torment, then explain what these verses mean?

That is not what Eccl 9:5 mean. the context indicates that with the passage of time know one living on earth will know who those who died are, know not their likes, dislikes, foibles, dramas, issues. Look again and note verse six:

Eccl 9:5,6 NKJV, "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun."

That is the context, no where is there even implied in the text these people will be annihilated into oblivion by fire or rest in soul sleep in the grave. You are taking these out of context as a proof text to justify error, plain and simple.

I gave you long ago the illustration of going to any grave yard, in the oldest section will be seen little or no flowers, just names on stones, but do you know who and theses people likes and dislikes were? No... all is forgotten.

The dead know not anything is more inline with the meaning in the Hebrew to English meaning they no can no longer make oneself known -context indicates what it is - their love, their hatred, and their envy. Why because they have come into Judgement as Eccl 3:11,17,21 and Eccl 12:14 states.

Eccl 3:22, Jesus has come and is the one who has shown us what comes after death in Luke 16:19-31 which is not just a cute secret knowledge story to a select few as you doctrine attempts to distort but rather a fulfillment of Eccl 3:22.

Jenna, let's cut to the chase here and stop beating a dead horse:

As I recall, I think we left off years ago on the reason why you think it is deplorable for God to grant eternal living never ending recompense to those who have died rejected Christ right now in Sheol in living form as Job 26:5,6 clearly states as well as Ezekiel 26:20 and as Ezekiel 32:21,31 mention that those now in the current hell see and hear waiting the final day of judgment as Isa 24:21,22 indicate.

You may not like this, but it is true. Your true reason's for rejecting the truth these verses clearly indicate has not been addressed.

If you like, we can pick this up where we left off - why do you find God's means of punishment wrong - personally - nothing more and nothing less...

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B. W. wrote:

jenna wrote:I do see your points, and i do agree with the possibility that after they are burned up, and will no longer be remembered. but again, you leave out verses like Ecc. 9:5 where it says the dead know not anything. if they know nothing, what is the point of eternal suffering? there is no point to it if they dont know it. there is also verses Psalm 146: 3-4, and 115:17. if the dead are in eternal torment, then explain what these verses mean?

That is not what Eccl 9:5 mean. the context indicates that with the passage of time know one living on earth will know who those who died are, know not their likes, dislikes, foibles, dramas, issues. Look again and note verse six:

Eccl 9:5,6 NKJV, "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share In anything done under the sun."

That is the context, no where is there even implied in the text these people will be annihilated into oblivion by fire or rest in soul sleep in the grave. You are taking these out of context as a proof text to justify error, plain and simple.

I gave you long ago the illustration of going to any grave yard, in the oldest section will be seen little or no flowers, just names on stones, but do you know who and theses people likes and dislikes were? No... all is forgotten.

The dead know not anything is more inline with the meaning in the Hebrew to English meaning they no can no longer make oneself known -context indicates what it is - their love, their hatred, and their envy. Why because they have come into Judgement as Eccl 3:11,17,21 and Eccl 12:14 states.

Eccl 3:22, Jesus has come and is the one who has shown us what comes after death in Luke 16:19-31 which is not just a cute secret knowledge story to a select few as you doctrine attempts to distort but rather a fulfillment of Eccl 3:22.

Jenna, let's cut to the chase here and stop beating a dead horse:

As I recall, I think we left off years ago on the reason why you think it is deplorable for God to grant eternal living never ending recompense to those who have died rejected Christ right now in Sheol in living form as Job 26:5,6 clearly states as well as Ezekiel 26:20 and as Ezekiel 32:21,31 mention that those now in the current hell see and hear waiting the final day of judgment as Isa 24:21,22 indicate.

You may not like this, but it is true. Your true reason's for rejecting the truth these verses clearly indicate has not been addressed.

If you like, we can pick this up where we left off - why do you find God's means of punishment wrong - personally - nothing more and nothing less...

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yes we did leave off years ago, but the bible still says the exact same thing it did when we left off. you are putting meaning, adding to the verses, and saying i am taking these verses out of context, when in fact i am doing nothing more than taking these verses for exactly what they say! I personally do not find God's means of punishment wrong. I agree fully with what He will do. However, your meaning of God's punishment and mine are totally different. Why dont you look a little more into the history of hell, and come back when you do. Find out how this belief truly started, because it did not originate from the pages of the bible.

The Bible would be the only True source of information about hell. Unless it would be from mythology. No one who goes to hell will be back to tell about it. What you Might be referring to is that people sometimes use the term 'hell' and 'lake of fire and brimstone' interchangeably. Revelation 20:13 - 14. Death and Hades are the terms used there. Matthew 18 uses the term 'hell'. As well as Luke 12:5.

Part of this discussion has been about burning in a lake of fire and brimstone -- when We think of something 'burning' it means it's on fire and is probably being destroyed or severely damaged in the process OF. The fire eventually goes out for lack of fuel to keep it going. But - God's punishment for satan is a fire that Won't go out. And he deserves that. So - there will be No 'after hell' for satan or anyone else who ends up there.

Revelation 20: 10 says the lake of fire is Only Meant for satan and the false prophet and the beast. Not for people. God has provided a way - the Only way - for People - you and me, etc. to stay Out of there. We're given enough of a description Of hell / lake of fire and brimstone / to want to Stay out of there.

crochet1949 wrote:The Bible would be the only True source of information about hell. Unless it would be from mythology. No one who goes to hell will be back to tell about it. What you Might be referring to is that people sometimes use the term 'hell' and 'lake of fire and brimstone' interchangeably. Revelation 20:13 - 14. Death and Hades are the terms used there. Matthew 18 uses the term 'hell'. As well as Luke 12:5.

Part of this discussion has been about burning in a lake of fire and brimstone -- when We think of something 'burning' it means it's on fire and is probably being destroyed or severely damaged in the process OF. The fire eventually goes out for lack of fuel to keep it going. But - God's punishment for satan is a fire that Won't go out. And he deserves that. So - there will be No 'after hell' for satan or anyone else who ends up there.

Revelation 20: 10 says the lake of fire is Only Meant for satan and the false prophet and the beast. Not for people. God has provided a way - the Only way - for People - you and me, etc. to stay Out of there. We're given enough of a description Of hell / lake of fire and brimstone / to want to Stay out of there.

ok, wait a minute here. you say that the lake of fire is meant for satan and his angels, not people, then you say we are given a way to stay out of it. why would you say that if it isnt meant for people? there would be no reason for Him to give us a way to stay out of it, if it was not meant for us anyway.

Because -- Without the cross -- because of our unrighteousness -- because Eve and Adam followed satan's word way back then rather than listen to God -- they Lost relationship With God. God is holy / perfect -- and nothing Unholy can be with God. We would All be dying in our sins and ending up in hell for eternity. (eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil) "God commendeth His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." He went down to hell For us -- In Our Place -- and came back to us. After those three days, He was resurrected. So -- Jesus Christ's death / being the perfect lamb of God / took care of our punishment. But each person is responsible for our personal sins and needs to recognize our need for a Savior / repent and accept what Christ has done on the cross as the one and only thing needed. Thank God for his gift.

crochet1949 wrote:Because -- Without the cross -- because of our unrighteousness -- because Eve and Adam followed satan's word way back then rather than listen to God -- they Lost relationship With God. God is holy / perfect -- and nothing Unholy can be with God. We would All be dying in our sins and ending up in hell for eternity. (eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil) "God commendeth His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." He went down to hell For us -- In Our Place -- and came back to us. After those three days, He was resurrected. So -- Jesus Christ's death / being the perfect lamb of God / took care of our punishment. But each person is responsible for our personal sins and needs to recognize our need for a Savior / repent and accept what Christ has done on the cross as the one and only thing needed. Thank God for his gift.

ok, and here is another thing. Christ DIED for us, He did not go to hell for us. To imply that He went to hell would mean that He never truly died. To say this would make Him a liar, and nothing at all He said could be trusted. and also, you did not explain WHY God would make a way out for us, if hell is for the devil and his angels, and not for us.

jenna wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Because -- Without the cross -- because of our unrighteousness -- because Eve and Adam followed satan's word way back then rather than listen to God -- they Lost relationship With God. God is holy / perfect -- and nothing Unholy can be with God. We would All be dying in our sins and ending up in hell for eternity. (eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil) "God commendeth His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." He went down to hell For us -- In Our Place -- and came back to us. After those three days, He was resurrected. So -- Jesus Christ's death / being the perfect lamb of God / took care of our punishment. But each person is responsible for our personal sins and needs to recognize our need for a Savior / repent and accept what Christ has done on the cross as the one and only thing needed. Thank God for his gift.

ok, and here is another thing. Christ DIED for us, He did not go to hell for us. To imply that He went to hell would mean that He never truly died. To say this would make Him a liar, and nothing at all He said could be trusted. and also, you did not explain WHY God would make a way out for us, if hell is for the devil and his angels, and not for us.

I 'Googled' the question. gotQuestions.org -- did Jesus go to hell?

Yes, Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. The confusion lies in Where He went after He died and Why. In Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades, referring to the place of the dead. Sheol / hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Jesus did Not go to a place of torment after His death, but He did go to hades.

That is a place of two divisions -- the abode of the unsaved is called 'hell'. The abode of the saved is called 'Abrahams' bosom'.

The Lake of Fire is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost.

When Jesus died, He went to the blessed side of sheol, and from there, took the believers with Him to heaven. (Ephesians 4:8-10)

Why would God make a way out for us? Because the wages of sin is death -- eternal separation from God. But the gift of God is eternal Life through Jesus Christ the Lord.

We lost fellowship with God when Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God's Word. The serpant told them that God didn't Really mean what He told them. They wouldn't Really die -- they Would become wise Like God. And they thought That sounded pretty good. So they chose to believe satan's lie Instead of following God's Word that was given to them. The cross -- Christ's shed blood for us -- was sufficient payment for our sins -- 'what can wash away my sins, nothing but the blood of Jesus' is a great truth in a song. But a person needs to accept a gift before it becomes Theirs.

Would you Rather that God let us end up in hell? and allow us all to spend eternity with satan in the lake of fire and brimstone?

I'm rather Glad that He has provided a way for us to be reconciled to Him through the blood of the cross.