Cruel Logic

[Kenny]

Kenny, I've been following this discussion here and there.
And I might agree with you to a certain extent, but then disagree with you to another.

Consider this. For me, I can't even fathom a world without God because as I see it such is just not ontologically possible.
It's like trying to consider the value of cars without anyone ever existing. How is this similar? Well,
- firstly, someone must exist to have created them.
- secondly, value is something subjective beings assign. (as you've reasoned right?)

So if no one exists, then 1) cars have no value and 2) not just that, they can't exist.
Therefore, to ask someone to consider the value of cars without anyone having existed is just absurd and ultimately nonsense. From where I stand, so too is any discussion of the value of the world (or things in the world) without God.

I would agree with your analogy if God were the only one who values the world or things in the world, but unlike cars where only humans value them thus humans are necessary for cars to have value (cars don’t value themselves) humans value the world and things within the world also thus as long as humans exist the world has value.

Here is the thing about value.
You (Kenny) are perhaps correct to a degree that it is something "subjects" give rather than inherent.
Let's consider something like existence. Does existence itself have any value?
Common sense tells us, "yes, of course." We intuit such.

I don’t agree existence itself has value.

So does its value exist just because Kenny says so? Because I say so?

Yes

I've agreed with you that value cannot be given unless there is someone to give it.
Now I might disagree with "existence" having any value, but then perhaps I really don't exist.
What I think doesn't have any bearing on the matter -- it seems clear to me that I'd be just as wrong in both cases.
And if I would be wrong, then a subject greater than I must exist to give "existence" its value.

The kicker is that things do exist, and sentient beings at that which didn't previous.
Our value wouldn't be possible unless there was a necessary something, a subjective being like God.
Therefore if existence has value, indeed we have value beyond just what someone on the same level thinks...

I can agree if God exists and he is on a different level than we are, then his existence is necessary for us to have value beyond just what someone on the same level thinks.
Obviously I believe our value is limited to what someone on the same level thinks.

Ken

[B. W.]

...I would agree with your analogy if God were the only one who values the world or things in the world, but unlike cars where only humans value them thus humans are necessary for cars to have value (cars don’t value themselves) humans value the world and things within the world also thus as long as humans exist the world has value.

Here is the thing about value. You (Kenny) are perhaps correct to a degree that it is something "subjects" give rather than inherent.Let's consider something like existence. Does existence itself have any value?

Common sense tells us, "yes, of course." We intuit such.

I don’t agree existence itself has value.

So does its value exist just because Kenny says so? Because I say so?

Yes

Then poof you are gone... therefore Kenny has no value in existing!

You cannot agree that existence has no value and then say it does have value because you says it does.

In fact,Kenny, you don’t agree existence itself has value then how could it have value just because you says it does? The law of non-contradiction is at work here disproving you.

Once you die - poof you are gone and the mathematics involved in determining the odds of a very large comet slamming into earth at some point in the future is good. So poof - not matter what you say, in fact, has no value either.

With such line of reasoning the terrorist attacks in France 3 days ago, the Terrorist values killing innocent life. So do they have value because they say so? According to your idea and comments, the answer is yes. But even you know intuit - that what these beast did is wrong and has no value.

Now if there is no afterlife to hold one to account then all terrorist have gotten away with it and thus absolute human debauchery should be the normal for humanity because nothing matters - that my friend is what your life's philosophy produces, self-evident in the times in which we live.

Life has value because God is the one who gave it as a gift to humanity so we can be the caretakers of His property exercising dominion (rule) governing by love, justice, mercy. However, the evidence that we fell away from this of our own free moral will is self evident too. God gave gifts to humanity and he does not renege on these despite our abuse and blaming him for giving us responsibility to stop it.

The militant agnostic and atheist would be the first to agree that being made an automaton would not be just as it denies liberty of reason and thought, yet, they demand that if there was a just God, God should have made humanity automatons. Both fail to see, that they are responsible for stopping evil because life does have value. God gave them and all humanity that responsibility to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly before Him. What do we collectively do?

Blame him for the terrorist attacks and not stopping it.

Well he did, but folks chose not listen and return to him so life again is restored to true value by becoming His people born again into new life with him energizing us from within our hearts/minds to act responsible to Him and each other.

This is something you are not familiar with, but you can be. Right now Ken, your life has no value. You may not like these words but like the rest of us, you are a child of hell, a rebel, a mocker, a scoffer, one who betrays, abandons, rejects, hurts, puts people (and God) on trial, justify your thefts, lust, pain just like all of us do and have done. Your existence has no value other than spreading this stuff to future generations.

I too am a child of hell and deserve the worst, not favor, not mercy, not forgiveness, but deserve to be cast away form the presence of God and his loving nature, forever. I never forget this, when I was shown God's mercy when I deserved none and like you, I put God on trial, reasoned the same as you, but Jesus came and rescued me at a time during which I did not deserve to be rescued. Such is the nature of His grace. That offer is extend to you and Eddy and others too.

Take up that offer, surrender to God's grace that will change and teach the value of life he gives return to God thru Jesus, you have been explain how to do this.

Stop fooling yourself hiding behind your... I don’t agree existence itself has value and Yes it has because I say it does. Life either has value or it does not.

Remember Kenny, one day and poof you are gone!

Then awake into the ultimate reality of life itself, may it be with the Lord of Glory and not with the terrorist.
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[Kenny]

Then poof you are gone... therefore Kenny has no value in existing!

As I said before, as long as someone values my life, even if it is only my dog; my life has value.

You cannot agree that existence has no value and then say it does have value because you says it does.

In fact,Kenny, you don’t agree existence itself has value then how could it have value just because you says it does? The law of non-contradiction is at work here disproving you.

Just because something exist doesn't mean it has value; the value comes when someone values it. If something exists and nobody is aware of its existence, it has no value because nobody will value it. If I say something has value, I obviously value it thus it has value if to nobody but myself.

Once you die - poof you are gone and the mathematics involved in determining the odds of a very large comet slamming into earth at some point in the future is good. So poof - not matter what you say, in fact, has no value either.

With such line of reasoning the terrorist attacks in France 3 days ago, the Terrorist values killing innocent life. So do they have value because they say so? According to your idea and comments, the answer is yes. But even you know intuit - that what these beast did is wrong and has no value.

Those terrorists probably spent thousands of dollars to accomplish what they did. Obviously those acts had value to them, otherwise they wouldn't have spent the money. Remember; just because something has value doesn't mean it is good.

Now if there is no afterlife to hold one to account then all terrorist have gotten away with it and thus absolute human debauchery should be the normal for humanity because nothing matters - that my friend is what your life's philosophy produces, self-evident in the times in which we live.

Society finds it important to enforce laws that punish such behavior BEFORE they die. We aren't in the business of throwing our hands up and saying "Let' em do what they want now and let God punish them after they die" NO! for those who believe in God they will say; "God can punish them after they die, but we gonna get to them first"!

Life has value because God is the one who gave it as a gift to humanity so we can be the caretakers of His property exercising dominion (rule) governing by love, justice, mercy. However, the evidence that we fell away from this of our own free moral will is self evident too. God gave gifts to humanity and he does not renege on these despite our abuse and blaming him for giving us responsibility to stop it.

The militant agnostic and atheist would be the first to agree that being made an automaton would not be just as it denies liberty of reason and thought, yet, they demand that if there was a just God, God should have made humanity automatons.

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?


Ken

[EssentialSacrifice]

What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

You are supposed to use it ... Good free will is supposed to be what you use...

[Kenny]

What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

You are supposed to use it ... Good free will is supposed to be what you use...

If you are doing God's will instead of your own, that is not free will, that's doing God's will.

Ken

[EssentialSacrifice]

It is God's will you do your will in imitation of His will. But it's your will to do so, even though it's God's will you do.

[RickD]

What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?

You are supposed to use it ... Good free will is supposed to be what you use...

If you are doing God's will instead of your own, that is not free will, that's doing God's will.

Ken

Free will is the ability to choose between different possible courses of action.

If you have the ability to choose to do God's will, by definition, you are acting on free will.

[Kenny]

It is God's will you do your will in imitation of His will. But it's your will to do so, even though it's God's will you do.

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

[Kurieuo]

It is God's will you do your will in imitation of His will. But it's your will to do so, even though it's God's will you do.

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

How does God punish us?

[Kenny]

It is God's will you do your will in imitation of His will. But it's your will to do so, even though it's God's will you do.

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

[Nessa]

Actually if the option were to live as an automaton for 80 or so years or whatever time I spend on earth; and have a guaranteed ticket to an eternal heaven upon death, or be given freewill for the 80 years and take a chance of making mistakes that lead to an eternal hell, I would choose the life of an automaton with the guaranteed ticket to heaven any day. What good is free will if you are not supposed to use it?


Ken

Would you sacrifice love? Take away choice and love is taken away too.

You are not merely asking to live the life of an automaton for 80 years, you are asking to live it for eternity.

[Kurieuo]

It is God's will you do your will in imitation of His will. But it's your will to do so, even though it's God's will you do.

That's what I mean. God wants us to do his will and he will punish us if we don't. How is that free will?

Ken

How does God punish us?

Hell.

Ken

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

[Nessa]

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

Three questions in a row, aye?
Before you know it someone will be starting a thread asking why you ask so many of them

[Kurieuo]

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

Three questions in a row, aye?
Before you know it someone will be starting a thread asking why you ask so many of them

I had a great teacher.

[Nessa]

What is Hell?
Why does it exist?
Who'd go there?

Three questions in a row, aye?
Before you know it someone will be starting a thread asking why you ask so many of them

I had a great teacher.

You must of had cos you said it twice
Edit: before you used your admin powers of deletion