Evidence for God from Science

OK... looks like we found a point where we disagree significantly.
I'm willing to learn...

RickD wrote:

According to Psalm 139:13 all humans are also knit together by God in their mother's womb.

Where? That verse doesn't say "all" humans.
There's where you're reading something into the verse.

Let me see if I can understand your interpretation of Psalm 139:13-14

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

What is your understanding about the scope of this passage?

Is it your understanding that this verse applies only to David?

Do you believe that David was the only human who was knit together by God in his mother's womb?

Do you believe that you were knit together by God in your mother's womb?

Therefore, according to Scripture you cannot make the assertion that being formed from dust excludes being knit together in your mother's womb.

That may be the way God forms people. With two exceptions, mentioned in scripture. A&E.

And this is where your position goes beyond what Scripture says.

Genesis 2 does not say that Adam was excluded from being formed in a mother's womb.
It says Adam was formed from dust... just like every other human.
Scripture is silent on the existence or lack thereof of a physical mother for Adam.

Your presupposition assumes that silence means that Adam had no physical mother. (This would be a problematic if we applied this principle to every person in Scripture who was formed from dust and whose mother is not explicitly mentioned)
My presupposition assumes that silence means that God knit Adam together in his mother's womb, just like he did for every other person.

In Christ

DBowling wrote:OK... looks like we found a point where we disagree significantly.
I'm willing to learn...

RickD wrote:

According to Psalm 139:13 all humans are also knit together by God in their mother's womb.

Where? That verse doesn't say "all" humans.
There's where you're reading something into the verse.

Let me see if I can understand your interpretation of Psalm 139:13-14

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

What is your understanding about the scope of this passage?
its specific to David, but I don't see an issue using it to describe how God makes humans, in general.

Is it your understanding that this verse applies only to David?
see above
Do you believe that David was the only human who was knit together by God in his mother's womb?
no.
Do you believe that you were knit together by God in your mother's womb?
yes
In Christ

Please excuse the sloppiness with my quotes, as I'm on an iPhone.

I think we agree that people are of the dust, and formed in the womb. But while that's a rule, there are exceptions, as noted.

While I believe people are formed in the womb, without reading into scripture something that it doesn't say, I wouldn't assert Adam or Eve was formed in the womb.

And when I was a kid, my dad told me that my uncle didn't have a belly button. The joke went completely over my head at the time.

DBowling wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Psalm 139:13 is a staement of God foreknowing David before he was even born.

I think Psalm 139:13-14 goes beyond foreknowledge

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

This describes God actively involved in the creative process.

In Christ

This is what you are treading into, not what it is saying.
Psalms is poetry and those passages are poetic verses.

Dang it, you added to your post!

Genesis 2 does not say that Adam was excluded from being formed in a mother's womb.
It says Adam was formed from dust... just like every other human.
Scripture is silent on the existence or lack thereof of a physical mother for Adam.

It says Adam was formed from the dust. Then it says God breathed into his nostrils. Then it says God places Adam in the garden.

What about Eve? Was she in her mother's womb?

Your presupposition assumes that silence means that Adam had no physical mother.
My presupposition assumes that silence means that God knit Adam together in his mother's womb, just like he did for every other person.

No. I'm not saying that because scripture doesn't mention Adam's mother, that's why he didn't have one.

I'm saying that scripture says God specially created Adam, unlike any other human. Adam was formed from the dust, AND, God breathed into his nostrils.

Like I said, if you want to assume God knit Adam in a womb, that's your prerogative. But you're not getting that from scripture. That's my point.

PaulSacramento wrote:

DBowling wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Psalm 139:13 is a staement of God foreknowing David before he was even born.

I think Psalm 139:13-14 goes beyond foreknowledge

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

This describes God actively involved in the creative process.

In Christ

This is what you are treading into, not what it is saying.
Psalms is poetry and those passages are poetic verses.

Oh these verses are absolutely poetic... no disagreement there.

But the poetry involves the Psalmist's description of God's creative process.
Appealing to poetry does not allow one to deny the unambiguous assertion by the Psalmist that a wonderful creative act of God is taking place in the mother's womb.

In Christ

RickD wrote:Dang it, you added to your post!

Yeah... Sorry...
We were typing at the same time

What about Eve? Was she in her mother's womb?

I honestly don't know what's going on with Eve.

To the best of my understanding the Genesis narrative goes something like this.
Adam falls into a deep sleep.
While Adam is sleeping God splits Adam in half.
Out of one half God makes Eve.
When Adam wakes up God presents Eve to Adam.
In joy Adam exclaims "bone of my bone, and flesh of my flesh"

Still scratching my head on that one... I'm not ready to even form a personal opinion yet.

Your presupposition assumes that silence means that Adam had no physical mother.
My presupposition assumes that silence means that God knit Adam together in his mother's womb, just like he did for every other person.

No. I'm not saying that because scripture doesn't mention Adam's mother, that's why he didn't have one.

I assume you don't apply this interpretive principle to every Biblical character who was 'formed from dust' (ie all of them) whose mother is not mentioned by Scripture.

I'm saying that scripture says God specially created Adam, unlike any other human. Adam was formed from the dust, AND, God breathed into his nostrils.

I agree with your statement above but there is nothing there that explicitly excludes Adam from being knit together in the womb of a physical mother.

Like I said, if you want to assume God knit Adam in a womb, that's your prerogative. But you're not getting that from scripture.

Likewise... if you want to assume that God did not knit Adam in a womb, that's your prerogative. But you're not getting that from Scripture.

Our differences involve the presuppositions that we bring to silence.

In Christ

Mr. Bowling,

Please explain Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

If Adam was in a womb as you claim, then he wasn't a living being until he was born, and subsequently had God breathe into his nostrils?

RickD wrote:Mr. Bowling,

Please explain Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being

If Adam was in a womb as you claim, then he wasn't a living being until he was born, and subsequently had God breathe into his nostrils?

Based on other Scriptures I have mentioned in this thread I am fairly confident that "the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground" is a reference to the fact that God created Adam with a dusty/earthy/mortal body. This is true whether man in this verse refers to mankind in general or Adam specifically.

I'm still working through what the "breath of life" and "becoming a living being" refers to.
And it does make a difference whether man in this case is mankind in general or Adam specifically.

My inclination at the moment is that Genesis 2:7 is referring to Adam specifically because it appears that the specific man described in Genesis 2:7 is the same man who is placed by God in the garden in the next verse (Genesis 2:8).

If Genesis 2:7 is referring to Adam specifically then I am inclined to think that the 'breath of life' and 'becoming a living being' are somehow describing the process of God making Adam spiritually aware before he is placed in God's presence in the Garden of Eden Paradise.

I'm not claiming perfect understanding of Scripture here, but that is where I'm headed at the moment.

In Christ

DBowling wrote:

If Genesis 2:7 is referring to Adam specifically then I am inclined to think that the 'breath of life' and 'becoming a living being' are somehow describing the process of God making Adam spiritually aware before he is placed in God's presence in the Garden of Eden Paradise.

The problem with that, is the word for "being", in Genesis 2:7, is nephesh.

And nephesh isn't the spiritual "part" of humans. Nephesh, refers to the soul. The soul is the mind, will, and emotions of a creature.

Still sticking with the "in utero Adam" theory?

RickD wrote:

DBowling wrote:

If Genesis 2:7 is referring to Adam specifically then I am inclined to think that the 'breath of life' and 'becoming a living being' are somehow describing the process of God making Adam spiritually aware before he is placed in God's presence in the Garden of Eden Paradise.

The problem with that, is the word for "being", in Genesis 2:7, is nephesh.

And nephesh isn't the spiritual "part" of humans. Nephesh, refers to the soul. The soul is the mind, will, and emotions of a creature.

I would assert that becoming spiritually aware or 'alive' does involve the mind, will and emotions.

Still sticking with the "in utero Adam" theory?

Until Scripture tells me otherwise I am still inclined to believe that Psalm 139:13 applies just as much to Adam as it does to the rest of humanity.

DBowling wrote:
I would assert that becoming spiritually aware or 'alive' does involve the mind, will and emotions.

Spiritually aware, and alive in a nephesh sense, aren't the same. Some animals are nephesh creatures. And they don't have a spiritual awareness.

Since I just saw the new Star Wars, and logic and proper exegesis aren't working with you, I'll try something different...

In utero Adam, is not the Adam you are looking for. Move along.

RickD wrote:

DBowling wrote:
I would assert that becoming spiritually aware or 'alive' does involve the mind, will and emotions.

Spiritually aware, and alive in a nephesh sense, aren't the same. Some animals are nephesh creatures. And they don't have a spiritual awareness.

I would not consider animal nephesh creatures to be spiritually alive.
However, in order for a human nephesh to become spiritually 'alive' then God has to intervene.
And in order for Adam to dwell in God's presence then God had to intervene to make Adam a spiritually alive nephesh before he placed him in the Garden of Eden Paradise.

Since I just saw the new Star Wars

What did you think?
I saw it with my son on Sunday after Church and I really enjoyed it.

and logic and proper exegesis aren't working with you

Don't worry... they're working just fine thank you...
But I understand... its easy to confuse personal opinion with logic and proper exegesis at times.

But iron sharpening iron is actually a healthy thing when digging into Scripture. Which is why I have actually enjoyed and benefited from discussing whether or not Adam had a belly button for hours with brothers in Christ today.

In Christ

Have loved reading this, one quick question? Whats the difference between soul and spirit?

Storyteller wrote:Have loved reading this, one quick question? Whats the difference between soul and spirit?

I would explain it basically as humans are a spirit beings. We live in a body and we have a soul. The real person inside of us is our spirit. Our soul is our mind, will, and emotions.

Our spirit, our real self, becomes born again. A believer who is born again, can still sin, because we still inhabit our fleshly body, which fights against our spirit. The spirit, which desires the things of God.

Mr. Bowling,

I was joking about bad exegesis. It was supposed to be part of the Star Wars/Jedi mind trick joke.

I apologize. After reading it again, it looks like it was written seriously by me. It wasn't. I enjoy your posts on this subject and others. You really get me thinking.

And yes, I really enjoyed the new Star Wars movie. The three prequels lacked a real connection to the original movies. The Force Awakens, really played well off of episodes 4 and 5. Plus the new one had some really great actors.

I think it was the best one so far.

And I'm really looking forward to seeing the new Jedi kick some serious butt!