Evidence for God from Science

melanie wrote:.

Never before, have you said so much, by saying so little!

RickD wrote:

melanie wrote:.

Never before, have you said so much, by saying so little!

Haha profound isn't it.
Go on, give it a like

RickD wrote:

melanie wrote:.

Never before, have you said so much, by saying so little!

She's just stealing all the points that I make!

abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause

Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause

Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Then prove your exception Kenny. If you want to be taken seriously, show why something is an exception. A good example of proof that God exists, is Aquinas' The First Way: Argument From Motion:

The First Way: Argument from Motion

Our senses prove that some things are in motion.

Things move when potential motion becomes actual motion.

Only an actual motion can convert a potential motion into an actual motion.

Nothing can be at once in both actuality and potentiality in the same respect (i.e., if both actual and potential, it is actual in one respect and potential in another).

Therefore nothing can move itself.

Therefore each thing in motion is moved by something else.

The sequence of motion cannot extend ad infinitum.

Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God.

http://web.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/w ... alysis.htm

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause

Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Straw man,God is eternal,you might not believe it but our God is eternal and is not a created god like many other false god's. This is an example of intellectual dishonesty I brought up before. There is a reason why Christians know our God is the most logical cause for the singularity,it is based on who our God is,not you're imagined straw man god that we don't believe in or accept. It does'nt apply to Christianity just because you don't believe in God and you can't make some other imagined god apply to our God.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause

Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Straw man,God is eternal,you might not believe it but our God is eternal and is not a created god like many other false god's. This is an example of intellectual dishonesty I brought up before. There is a reason why Christians know our God is the most logical cause for the singularity,it is based on who our God is,not you're imagined straw man god that we don't believe in or accept. It does'nt apply to Christianity just because you don't believe in God and you can't make some other imagined god apply to our God.

The point is, you said Atheists can’t go beyond the singularity but theists can. You seem to be confusing the atheist position with the scientific position completely ignoring many theists accept science as well. If you can go beyond science and claim God as an answer who is unsupported by science, the atheist can go beyond science and claim dark energy, dark matter, eternal Universe, or a host of other things the imagination might come up with that is unsupported by science. This is not my position; I’ve been clear from the start I don’t have an answer, I’m just saying if thats the game you wanna play, 2 can play that game also.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause

Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Straw man,God is eternal,you might not believe it but our God is eternal and is not a created god like many other false god's. This is an example of intellectual dishonesty I brought up before. There is a reason why Christians know our God is the most logical cause for the singularity,it is based on who our God is,not you're imagined straw man god that we don't believe in or accept. It does'nt apply to Christianity just because you don't believe in God and you can't make some other imagined god apply to our God.

The point is, you said Atheists can’t go beyond the singularity but theists can. You seem to be confusing the atheist position with the scientific position completely ignoring many theists accept science as well. If you can go beyond science and claim God as an answer who is unsupported by science, the atheist can go beyond science and claim dark energy, dark matter, eternal Universe, or a host of other things the imagination might come up with that is unsupported by science. This is not my position; I’ve been clear from the start I don’t have an answer, I’m just saying if thats the game you wanna play, 2 can play that game also.

Ken

I know this but God makes more sense and is more logical than what atheists come up with. It comes down to either revelation from God or speculation from man and God makes the most sense based on who God is,what he can do and reason.I've heard the atheist speculations you've pointed out eventhough you claim to not know.You're still taking the long way around though to reject God even if you don't speculate.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Atheists cannot go back prior to the singularity but the reason we can is because by reason we know all things have a cause

Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Straw man,God is eternal,you might not believe it but our God is eternal and is not a created god like many other false god's. This is an example of intellectual dishonesty I brought up before. There is a reason why Christians know our God is the most logical cause for the singularity,it is based on who our God is,not you're imagined straw man god that we don't believe in or accept. It does'nt apply to Christianity just because you don't believe in God and you can't make some other imagined god apply to our God.

The point is, you said Atheists can’t go beyond the singularity but theists can. You seem to be confusing the atheist position with the scientific position completely ignoring many theists accept science as well. If you can go beyond science and claim God as an answer who is unsupported by science, the atheist can go beyond science and claim dark energy, dark matter, eternal Universe, or a host of other things the imagination might come up with that is unsupported by science. This is not my position; I’ve been clear from the start I don’t have an answer, I’m just saying if thats the game you wanna play, 2 can play that game also.

Ken

I know this but God makes more sense and is more logical than what atheists come up with. It comes down to either revelation from God or speculation from man and God makes the most sense based on who God is,what he can do and reason.I've heard the atheist speculations you've pointed out eventhough you claim to not know.You're still taking the long way around though to reject God even if you don't speculate.

Your answer makes the most sense to you but it doesn't for everybody

Ken

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote: Actually according to my understanding, the most common theistic claim is everything EXCEPT GOD has a cause. Of course if the theist can make an exception for his explanation not requiring a cause, so can the Atheist.

Ken

Straw man,God is eternal,you might not believe it but our God is eternal and is not a created god like many other false god's. This is an example of intellectual dishonesty I brought up before. There is a reason why Christians know our God is the most logical cause for the singularity,it is based on who our God is,not you're imagined straw man god that we don't believe in or accept. It does'nt apply to Christianity just because you don't believe in God and you can't make some other imagined god apply to our God.

The point is, you said Atheists can’t go beyond the singularity but theists can. You seem to be confusing the atheist position with the scientific position completely ignoring many theists accept science as well. If you can go beyond science and claim God as an answer who is unsupported by science, the atheist can go beyond science and claim dark energy, dark matter, eternal Universe, or a host of other things the imagination might come up with that is unsupported by science. This is not my position; I’ve been clear from the start I don’t have an answer, I’m just saying if thats the game you wanna play, 2 can play that game also.

Ken

I know this but God makes more sense and is more logical than what atheists come up with. It comes down to either revelation from God or speculation from man and God makes the most sense based on who God is,what he can do and reason.I've heard the atheist speculations you've pointed out eventhough you claim to not know.You're still taking the long way around though to reject God even if you don't speculate.

Your answer makes the most sense to you but it doesn't for everybody

Ken

Yes it does,they just choose to take the long way around to try to get to the truth.Evidence matters to most people but not to somebody choosing to willingly take the long way around,ignoring evidence while not having any evidence atheism is true,only speculations that are not real science and are irrational compared to accepting the obvious that nothing happens in our universe without a cause,NOTHING except the God we believe in,not some straw man god we don't believe in.

You openly admit that you don't know and you are OK with it instead of focusing on evidence and reason and having a desire to want to know the truth holding your people to the same standard for evidence you do for God and people of faith who tell you and give you evidence but its not important to you so long as you can reject God and all the evidence for him,while you have no evidence that you are right.

It is intellectual dishonesty that I hope you'll free yourself from someday. You need to understand that nobody or nothing gets a pass when it comes to what is true or not,not even atheists or agnostics get a pass if you're really seeking the truth.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Straw man,God is eternal,you might not believe it but our God is eternal and is not a created god like many other false god's. This is an example of intellectual dishonesty I brought up before. There is a reason why Christians know our God is the most logical cause for the singularity,it is based on who our God is,not you're imagined straw man god that we don't believe in or accept. It does'nt apply to Christianity just because you don't believe in God and you can't make some other imagined god apply to our God.

The point is, you said Atheists can’t go beyond the singularity but theists can. You seem to be confusing the atheist position with the scientific position completely ignoring many theists accept science as well. If you can go beyond science and claim God as an answer who is unsupported by science, the atheist can go beyond science and claim dark energy, dark matter, eternal Universe, or a host of other things the imagination might come up with that is unsupported by science. This is not my position; I’ve been clear from the start I don’t have an answer, I’m just saying if thats the game you wanna play, 2 can play that game also.

Ken

I know this but God makes more sense and is more logical than what atheists come up with. It comes down to either revelation from God or speculation from man and God makes the most sense based on who God is,what he can do and reason.I've heard the atheist speculations you've pointed out eventhough you claim to not know.You're still taking the long way around though to reject God even if you don't speculate.

Your answer makes the most sense to you but it doesn't for everybody

Ken

Yes it does,they just choose to take the long way around to try to get to the truth.Evidence matters to most people but not to somebody choosing to willingly take the long way around,ignoring evidence while not having any evidence atheism is true,only speculations that are not real science and are irrational compared to accepting the obvious that nothing happens in our universe without a cause,NOTHING except the God we believe in,not some straw man god we don't believe in.

You openly admit that you don't know and you are OK with it instead of focusing on evidence and reason and having a desire to want to know the truth holding your people to the same standard for evidence you do for God and people of faith who tell you and give you evidence but its not important to you so long as you can reject God and all the evidence for him,while you have no evidence that you are right.

It is intellectual dishonesty that I hope you'll free yourself from someday. You need to understand that nobody or nothing gets a pass when it comes to what is true or not,not even atheists or agnostics get a pass if you're really seeking the truth.

So you are making the claim that everything requires a cause? Prove it! Prove dark matter and dark energy requires cause.

Ken

kenny wrote:

So you are making the claim that everything requires a cause? Prove it! Prove dark matter and dark energy requires cause.

Ask and Ye shall receive:

The Second Way: Argument from Efficient Causes

We perceive a series of efficient causes of things in the world.

Nothing exists prior to itself.

Therefore nothing [in the world of things we perceive] is the efficient cause of itself.

If a previous efficient cause does not exist, neither does the thing that results (the effect).

Therefore if the first thing in a series does not exist, nothing in the series exists.

If the series of efficient causes extends ad infinitum into the past, for then there would be no things existing now.

That is plainly false (i.e., there are things existing now that came about through efficient causes).

Therefore efficient causes do not extend ad infinitum into the past.

Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God.

Kenny,

I really hope you asked because you want to know the answer. It's there right in front of you. Open your eyes, and choose to see.

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote: The point is, you said Atheists can’t go beyond the singularity but theists can. You seem to be confusing the atheist position with the scientific position completely ignoring many theists accept science as well. If you can go beyond science and claim God as an answer who is unsupported by science, the atheist can go beyond science and claim dark energy, dark matter, eternal Universe, or a host of other things the imagination might come up with that is unsupported by science. This is not my position; I’ve been clear from the start I don’t have an answer, I’m just saying if thats the game you wanna play, 2 can play that game also.

Ken

I know this but God makes more sense and is more logical than what atheists come up with. It comes down to either revelation from God or speculation from man and God makes the most sense based on who God is,what he can do and reason.I've heard the atheist speculations you've pointed out eventhough you claim to not know.You're still taking the long way around though to reject God even if you don't speculate.

Your answer makes the most sense to you but it doesn't for everybody

Ken

Yes it does,they just choose to take the long way around to try to get to the truth.Evidence matters to most people but not to somebody choosing to willingly take the long way around,ignoring evidence while not having any evidence atheism is true,only speculations that are not real science and are irrational compared to accepting the obvious that nothing happens in our universe without a cause,NOTHING except the God we believe in,not some straw man god we don't believe in.

You openly admit that you don't know and you are OK with it instead of focusing on evidence and reason and having a desire to want to know the truth holding your people to the same standard for evidence you do for God and people of faith who tell you and give you evidence but its not important to you so long as you can reject God and all the evidence for him,while you have no evidence that you are right.

It is intellectual dishonesty that I hope you'll free yourself from someday. You need to understand that nobody or nothing gets a pass when it comes to what is true or not,not even atheists or agnostics get a pass if you're really seeking the truth.

So you are making the claim that everything requires a cause? Prove it! Prove dark matter and dark energy requires cause.

Ken

Prove it? are you serious? Look around you at everything that had a cause and that is your proof.Look around you right now and you cannot name anything that did not have a cause,even if you go outside,even if we talk about the weather or whatever all things have a cause,yet you reject reality around you to somehow believe it applies to everything except dark matter? Based on what?You're asking for proof while ignoring reality around you while having no proof you are right but you give yourself a pass while demanding proof. You are ignoring reality taking the long way around like you always do. I don't understand how you do it especially when it is so easy to believe God caused it to happen compared to anything else you could think up.

Okay, how about this then?

As humans, it`s pretty much accepted that we are the most "intelligent" species on the planet, yes? (I know dolphins, elephants, primates etc.. btw, have you heard of Koko the gorilla?... but you all know what I mean)

AI is becoming more and more advanced, yes? To the point where some scientists believe that eventually they will develop self awareness. (I can`t give sources, I`m not even sure where I read it, it may well have been Stephen Hawkings. If I`m wrong then I will retract all of this, it`s just an idea anyway)

What`s the similarity?

Creation.

I`m putting this terribly, aren`t I?

I suppose the point I`m trying to make is surely to create intelligence, in whatever form, takes a prior intelligence? Otherwise where did it come from?
How did we get intelligence form non intelligence?

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:
I know this but God makes more sense and is more logical than what atheists come up with. It comes down to either revelation from God or speculation from man and God makes the most sense based on who God is,what he can do and reason.I've heard the atheist speculations you've pointed out eventhough you claim to not know.You're still taking the long way around though to reject God even if you don't speculate.

Your answer makes the most sense to you but it doesn't for everybody

Ken

Yes it does,they just choose to take the long way around to try to get to the truth.Evidence matters to most people but not to somebody choosing to willingly take the long way around,ignoring evidence while not having any evidence atheism is true,only speculations that are not real science and are irrational compared to accepting the obvious that nothing happens in our universe without a cause,NOTHING except the God we believe in,not some straw man god we don't believe in.

You openly admit that you don't know and you are OK with it instead of focusing on evidence and reason and having a desire to want to know the truth holding your people to the same standard for evidence you do for God and people of faith who tell you and give you evidence but its not important to you so long as you can reject God and all the evidence for him,while you have no evidence that you are right.

It is intellectual dishonesty that I hope you'll free yourself from someday. You need to understand that nobody or nothing gets a pass when it comes to what is true or not,not even atheists or agnostics get a pass if you're really seeking the truth.

So you are making the claim that everything requires a cause? Prove it! Prove dark matter and dark energy requires cause.

Ken

Prove it? are you serious? Look around you at everything that had a cause and that is your proof.Look around you right now and you cannot name anything that did not have a cause,even if you go outside,even if we talk about the weather or whatever all things have a cause,yet you reject reality around you to somehow believe it applies to everything except dark matter? Based on what?You're asking for proof while ignoring reality around you while having no proof you are right but you give yourself a pass while demanding proof. You are ignoring reality taking the long way around like you always do. I don't understand how you do it especially when it is so easy to believe God caused it to happen compared to anything else you could think up.

Everything you are talking about applies to normal matter and energy, that's the matter and energy around you; I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about Dark Matter and Dark Energy. Prove that has a cause. Also dark matter was discovered in the 1970's so pointing to some guy who made a bunch of arguments a thousand years before dark matter was even discovered won't work either.

Ken