Evidence for God from Science

Audie wrote:Ice, I was speaking of and for myself when I said its an ESL thing.
English is not my first language.

I was not trying to act superior.

If you want a reset, fine with me.

The above post in which you speak about me to me and to others on divers topics
would be difficult to format for a response, the more so with this tiny tablet.

If you have a single topic, separate it out and I will see what I can do with it-if you like.
With every reasonable effort at mutual respect?

My sincere apologies for misunderstanding who that ESL thing was addressed to.
A reset would be nice, yes.

So:
1)

Audie wrote:Why enjoy summer if you know winter is coming?

IceMobster wrote: I am not sure I fully understood what you wanted to say with this. Mind explaining it?

2)

IceMobster wrote: However, that still doesn't explain the point of your life. I am certain I would become a nihilist if this quote above was applied to me. So, my question is, what keeps you from not being one?
And how is it rational to believe that we are a product of coincidence (and lots of it)? How can coincidence produce symmetrical, connected and balanced form?

Kenny wrote:

IceMobster wrote:Can we get back on topic, please? I still don't have any idea how did she conclude I am self indulgent.
I'd like to know why Audie thinks atheism makes any sense if eternal nothingness awaits you. Nothingness which means your mind and the ability to think is gone after this life.
I know I am coming dangerously close to nihilism, but both claim there is nothing after this life, so, I would like to hear her(or anyone's) thinking concerning the topic.
I want to understand that way of thinking.

I can't speak for Audie, but for me atheism is not something I choose because it sounds fun, or is preferred, I accept it because I believe it to be the truth.

Ken

Why do you believe it to be the truth?

Kenny wrote:

B. W. wrote:

Kenny wrote:

IceMobster wrote:What is the point in living if there is eternal nothingness afterwards? Note that I am not implying the: "If there is no God, everything is allowed." - it is irrelevant in this case.
Does it matter if you do this or that in this ~80 years of your life if you perish into nothingness after death?
If there was no God, I would kill myself right now, so, why don't you do it?
I've read somewhere that (from an atheist point of view) the purpose of life is to share the knowledge onto the next unit (being, probably the descendant), but what is the point in that? So they can do the same while your nous disappears as you die knowing their will, too?

It's about the journey; not the destination.

Ken

Then it ends and there is no point to it all anyway
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Of course there is! The journey is the point of it all. Right now I am eating Ice cream while communicating to you. A Million years from now nobody will care that at this point and time I have chosen to eat Ice cream, but I am not eating Ice cream to impress someone a million years from now, I'm eating it because I enjoy it right now! That's the point of it all. I'll have to admit; I've never understood this idea that if it doesn't matter a million years from now, it is just useless activity.

Ken

It is not that much about relevancy of the ice cream or yourself, but rather how I can't comprehend why do you live if nothingness awaits... but you already answered that ("journey is what matters and not the destination"), so, yeah...

Storyteller wrote:Why would you really do it if there is no God?

Either way life is a gift.

Because I would see no sense in living on since anything I do is irrelevant - both in this life and in the after life. There would be no end goal, no hope, mercy, love or justice for those who didn't do well in this life. Not to mention that all of that would be a result of crude coincidence, a natural selection, luck. If they had more of it(luck), what a life that would be... Oh, right... An irrelevant one. Awaited only by nothing. Well, I would be too depressed to do anything since nothing matters. I couldn't be angry on some immoral acts or injustices since there is nothing to compare them to. Much like in nature. You can't say that nature is evil for killing thousands of people with her earthquakes or whatnot. It is in nature's nature. It's a normal thing. I feel like I could continue to write for another half an hour but I'll stop here.
Thank you for the gift but I don't want to accept it, eh? Would that be a valid answer?

IceMobster wrote: Why do you believe it to be the truth?

Because of all the God claims I’ve heard, none of the sound credible.

Let me ask you a question; If the destination is the only thing that is important, why get married, read a good book, see a movie, or even make friends if its all irrelevant?

Ken

B. W. wrote:Then it ends and there is no point to it all anyway

Is it possible that if a person is deliberately obtuse for long enough he becomes incapable of being otherwise? Does the deliberate part just fade away, leaving him irrevocably, but unconsciously, dense?

B. W. wrote:And to Ice,

This is for you. Don't kill yourself.

Finally, you say something that makes sense.

No, Ice, don't kill yourself. Not because of all the religious stuff, or because of all the garbage B.W. is making up about atheism, but because you're alive, you have the capacity to experience joy, wonder, and love, and you have the freedom to seek those things out. You only get one life and when it's over it's over, so seize the day, suck the marrow from the bones, and die with a smile on your face, knowing that you've truly lived.

B. W. wrote:You uncovered the atheism dilemma - they defend nothingness because in the end, the universe will someday implode.

Not only is that untrue, it's not even a dilemma.

Ice, literally everything that B.W. ever says about atheism is false. He doesn't understand atheism and he doesn't want to. He'd rather just make something up.

B. W. wrote:No matter the bravado of atheist and atheism proclaiming that they value life, they actually value that life ceases into nothingness and when the universe implodes, there will be no more human race. They only offer hollowness of ideas and words and thus have no answers. You seem to be discovering this, haven't you?

This appears to be false, but it's mostly gibberish so I can't say for sure.

B. W. wrote:So put away far from you whatever scheme/plan to end you life...

I didn't get the sense that you actually planned to end your life, but yeah, don't. It's a poor idea. If you don't think your life has meaning then get a dog.

@Icemobster
No one should believe in God because there is an afterlife, period.

I am amused you are trying to appeal to this to point out the "atheist dilemma". They don't have this dilemma. It's like asking a fish about the charms of travelling on land and if they reply they don't care, you think they have a dilemma.

Seriously?

I think it's quite insulting to say that an atheist should kill him or herself because they don't think there is an afterlife.

Edward: Ice, literally everything that B.W. ever says about atheism is false. He doesn't understand atheism and he doesn't want to. He'd rather just make something up.

What a statement to make, Ed - apparently you do not know that B.W. spent much of his own life as a militant atheist. I'd say he intimately understands how atheists think and well knows all of their many assertions and supposedly intellectual arguments. So, Ice, please just ignore Ed's ridiculous comment.

Atheism is, by definition, the view that there is no god of any sort.
There are different types of atheists of course.
It is a belief system by the very definition of the word belief:

Belief is the state of mind in which a person thinks something to be the case, with or without there being empirical evidence to prove that something is the case with factual certainty.

Some people become atheist ( they believed in God and then stopped), and some have always been atheist ( they never believed in God at all).

The reasons an individual is an atheist or becomes one varies so it isn't possible to state in specific why a person is an atheist, only she/he can say why.

That said, there are emotional and logical reasons why a person would become or stay an atheist.

neo-x wrote:@Icemobster
No one should believe in God because there is an afterlife, period.

I am amused you are trying to appeal to this to point out the "atheist dilemma". They don't have this dilemma. It's like asking a fish about the charms of travelling on land and if they reply they don't care, you think they have a dilemma.

Seriously?

I think it's quite insulting to say that an atheist should kill him or herself because they don't think there is an afterlife.

Agreed by me - not sure about the bit in bold though. I don't think I'd be too worried if I was an atheist to think there was no afterlife - I'd think that this life is what we have, however it came about, that we're lucky to have it (especially us Westerners who tend to live quite comfortably) and we should make the most of it. When we die, I'd think, we'll probably know nothing, so there will be no ultimate judgement for how we lived - no need to worry about our final destination!

But I believe that the universe must have been made by God, and because of the special nature of the Bible over other writings I believe it reveals this God, so it's what he says about life after death that goes.

neo-x wrote:@Icemobster
No one should believe in God because there is an afterlife, period.

I am amused you are trying to appeal to this to point out the "atheist dilemma". They don't have this dilemma. It's like asking a fish about the charms of travelling on land and if they reply they don't care, you think they have a dilemma.

Seriously?

I think it's quite insulting to say that an atheist should kill him or herself because they don't think there is an afterlife.

I actually had never heard that I had this dilemma. It appears to be if anything a Christian dilemma.

How about this: One devotes all of life to being a nun or priest, a life of self denial and prayer, in the hopes of a better time to come. Then you die, and,
that is it.

Nicki wrote:

neo-x wrote:@Icemobster
No one should believe in God because there is an afterlife, period.

I am amused you are trying to appeal to this to point out the "atheist dilemma". They don't have this dilemma. It's like asking a fish about the charms of travelling on land and if they reply they don't care, you think they have a dilemma.

Seriously?

I think it's quite insulting to say that an atheist should kill him or herself because they don't think there is an afterlife.

Agreed by me - not sure about the bit in bold though. I don't think I'd be too worried if I was an atheist to think there was no afterlife - I'd think that this life is what we have, however it came about, that we're lucky to have it (especially us Westerners who tend to live quite comfortably) and we should make the most of it. When we die, I'd think, we'll probably know nothing, so there will be no ultimate judgement for how we lived - no need to worry about our final destination!

But I believe that the universe must have been made by God, and because of the special nature of the Bible over other writings I believe it reveals this God, so it's what he says about life after death that goes.

Well, there is always Passcals wager, sure. There is also that if there is a god, he /it has not the least concern for the specks of protoplasm scattered about the universe.

If you really were an atheist, no, you would not be "too worried".

I know that Christians think their bible is special, that they got lucky and picked the right god. From my pov, that is what they all say.

As for valuing life, it is hard wired into you as, yes, an evolved creature.

Every living thing tries to stay alive. Its like, so totally natural selection!
Those with lacking or weak instinct dont tend to do so well.

It is really a tremendous perversion of the natural order to allow one's mind
to wander into the dead end self indulgence of feeling that the lack of some cosmic purpose indicates there is no meaning at all, and one might as well die.

Audie wrote:

neo-x wrote:@Icemobster
No one should believe in God because there is an afterlife, period.

I am amused you are trying to appeal to this to point out the "atheist dilemma". They don't have this dilemma. It's like asking a fish about the charms of travelling on land and if they reply they don't care, you think they have a dilemma.

Seriously?

I think it's quite insulting to say that an atheist should kill him or herself because they don't think there is an afterlife.

I actually had never heard that I had this dilemma. It appears to be if anything a Christian dilemma.

How about this: One devotes all of life to being a nun or priest, a life of self denial and prayer, in the hopes of a better time to come. Then you die, and,
that is it.

Then he/she is no better or worse off than someone who lived his whole life in selfish pleasure.
But what about the opposite?

One who lives all his life devoted to himself. With no belief in God. Actually denying God. Then he dies. Then he discovers that God is real, and since he denied God all his life, it's too late to do anything about it after he dies. What about that possibility?
Thought of that Audie?

Audie wrote:
I know that Christians think their bible is special, that they got lucky and picked the right god. From my pov, that is what they all say.

You know that, do you?

There you go making a false assumption about an entire group of people. And again, the hypocrisy is obvious.

Audie wrote:You may have noticed I will stand and fight anyone. 49 kg of fightin' c-ette is nothing to mess with.

HOWEVER, as our friend seems to wish merely to be rude, I see no reason to offer him someone to be rude to.

Joking around is one thing, being a jerk is another.

And you, Audie, have never been rude, and a jerk to anyone here on this forum?

Wow - even you cannot live up to your own standards!

Philip wrote:

Edward: Ice, literally everything that B.W. ever says about atheism is false. He doesn't understand atheism and he doesn't want to. He'd rather just make something up.

What a statement to make, Ed - apparently you do not know that B.W. spent much of his own life as a militant atheist. I'd say he intimately understands how atheists think and well knows all of their many assertions and supposedly intellectual arguments. So, Ice, please just ignore Ed's ridiculous comment.

As an atheist, I am only qualified to speak for myself, and this applies to all atheists. The problem is even though BW may have been an atheist at one time, he seems to think he can speak for Audie, me, Ed, and all other atheists when he is only qualified to speak for himself. Just because he may have believed this or that when he was atheist, doesn't mean all atheists believe that way.

Ken

Audie wrote:Every living thing tries to stay alive. Its like, so totally natural selection! Those with lacking or weak instinct dont tend to do so well.

It is really a tremendous perversion of the natural order to allow one's mind to wander into the dead end self indulgence of feeling that the lack of some cosmic purpose indicates there is no meaning at all, and one might as well die.

Natural order?

Look where it leads:

How will the universe end and could anything survive?

If extinction is the ultimate our come of natural order then staying alive is a mere hoax of fantasy in the atheist mind.

Natural order and natural selection points to universe suicide at some time in the future and add to the odds of a planet killing comet hitting earth...

What good is is survival of a species, natural order, all the principles of natural selection, based upon life's rarity when the end outcome is in doubt?

Natural selection and natural order do not value life's rarity, they seek to murder the weaker life so the strong may live, therefore, the basis and crux of atheistic values fall flat due to logical fallacy.

Just like the article cites states, non-existence is the endgame no matter what one's flavor of theory on such matters are.

Point is this:

For life to be actually valuable because it is rare would indicate there needs to be a being, God, who gives life its value because it is eternal and never ending gift from himself to those whom he created to share in the gift of life. No matter the final outcome of the universe, life never ends, continuing on because of the giver of life does not end.

In this way, and the only way life really has value as well as explain the inherent nature into why living thinking beings on this earth have bent to stay alive is because life is valuable. It is we, who ruin it with our dysfunctional ways. However, a living being would send forth the means to educate fallen people that life does have value...

Rom 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good.
Rom 12:10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor;
Rom 12:11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer,
Rom 12:13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep.
Rom 12:16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation.
Rom 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Matthew 5:3-48 Matt 6:1-34, Matt 7:1-29

Natural selection and natural order does not teach or share these values...

There is a creator and someday we all will have to give an account on how we screwed up the gift of life have gave us.

I am glad he sent forth the Holy One, Jesus Christ, to release us us from our ways of always ruining things and reconcile us back to share in the eternal life of our creator: John 3:16-21

In this way, life has value because it is rare as well as to have real value, never ending...
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Wow Ed,

Your progressive liberal values of tolerance and acceptance and open mind to examine and respect all points of view sure shine through here!

Ed read the above post...

Atheism fools itself trying to make life have value since all will someday go extinct and into nothingness. Natural order and natural selection are opposed to the value of life because it is rare.

Your comments to me prove that you do not value my life or point of view and prove you incapable of being able to live up to your own progressive liberal standards...

How can you value life, Ed, and support abortion?

edwardmurphy wrote:

B. W. wrote:Then it ends and there is no point to it all anyway

Is it possible that if a person is deliberately obtuse for long enough he becomes incapable of being otherwise? Does the deliberate part just fade away, leaving him irrevocably, but unconsciously, dense?

B. W. wrote:And to Ice,

This is for you. Don't kill yourself.

Finally, you say something that makes sense.

No, Ice, don't kill yourself. Not because of all the religious stuff, or because of all the garbage B.W. is making up about atheism, but because you're alive, you have the capacity to experience joy, wonder, and love, and you have the freedom to seek those things out. You only get one life and when it's over it's over, so seize the day, suck the marrow from the bones, and die with a smile on your face, knowing that you've truly lived.

B. W. wrote:You uncovered the atheism dilemma - they defend nothingness because in the end, the universe will someday implode.

Not only is that untrue, it's not even a dilemma.

Ice, literally everything that B.W. ever says about atheism is false. He doesn't understand atheism and he doesn't want to. He'd rather just make something up.

B. W. wrote:No matter the bravado of atheist and atheism proclaiming that they value life, they actually value that life ceases into nothingness and when the universe implodes, there will be no more human race. They only offer hollowness of ideas and words and thus have no answers. You seem to be discovering this, haven't you?

This appears to be false, but it's mostly gibberish so I can't say for sure.

B. W. wrote:So put away far from you whatever scheme/plan to end you life...

I didn't get the sense that you actually planned to end your life, but yeah, don't. It's a poor idea. If you don't think your life has meaning then get a dog.