Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:To be clear, my question concerning what thought-provoking questions we might ask to provoke self-contemplation in those whom might not be saved (but THINK they are) - it's not about what WE can discern from such people, as to any work's-related "proofs" of their salvation, because we can't peer into people's hearts and minds. Its about making others contemplate what they might have deluded themselves over.

Again, the saved thief on the cross comes to mind - he articulated to Jesus an understanding of precisely Who Jesus truly was in his response to the other thief ("Do you not fear GOD?"/ "Remember me when you come into YOUR kingdom."), and his desire for Jesus remember him. What possible WORKS could WE discern from such a man, just hours from death? I would imagine he actually said very little, with every word being excruciating and beyond imaginable effort. Any supposed works would have been in what he articulated for the ages, and more importantly, from the WORK God did in the thief's HEART and MIND, that he RESPONDED to. Also, very interesting, as to the supposed great depth of understanding and theologically correct articulation and manifestation necessary, from many in the Lordship Salvation crowd, that we don't read of some great repentance and deep commitment from the thief Jesus reassured - we see a very simple but powerful understanding has come upon him, of precisely Who/What (Lord) Jesus is, and yet it is articulated so thinly. He doesn't request forgiveness, but that he has turned to Jesus in faith is apparent in the boldness of his "request" - actually, almost a directive: " He does acknowledge that they (the thieves) are paying for sins he himself acknowledges Jesus remember me when you come into your Kingdom."

The saved thief's story is, essentially, a death-bed salvation, during great duress, pain, and realizing that he is soon to die - all of which, and most importantly, his close-up encounter with Jesus, brings him to faith. In fact, it is almost certain that this man, without his fearful dilemma and ALSO encountering Jesus, would never, otherwise have turned. And yet, in the very same situation, witnessing Jesus up close, the other thief echoes the world's mockery of God. But, really, my point of all this is that the INTENTIONS OF THE HEART of this thief are why Jesus judged him acceptable for His Kingdom. From many whom promote the way LS is often articulated, based upon the thin evidence that any MAN could have perceived (without Jesus having validated the thief's salvation), they would likely highly question anyone else's salvation ("Where's the evidence???!!! Where are the WORKS???!!!"). And so I think we all need to emphasize that WE just can't KNOW whether any person having prayed a simple prayer isn't saved - or that they are. But there are cautions of self-examination that are important for everyone. But I will say, when we see NO evidence of works in a LONG-time supposed believer, especially if they are given to certain behaviors and actions - we should be suspicious and at least WONDER about the likelihood they are not saved. But to dogmatically assert that if we haven't seen A,B or C in a person, then we KNOW they aren't saved - degenerate that someone has "prayed a prayer for Jesus to save them," and assert they are likely unsaved - I think, this is complete arrogance, that a MAN can know things only God can about another's salvation - as these may well be things that cannot be SEEN by men.

PaulSacramento wrote:why do people need evidence of another's faith?
Can YOU save him? Can YOU save her?
No.
That is God's territory.
It is HIS place to judge the faith, not ours.

The reason this crap comes along every so often is because PEOPLE WANT to boast about how good they are, "look how charitable I am, Look how I give and take care of others!, I am Christ's special snowflake !".

True Christian good works should NOT be seen, no one needs to know what we give, to who and why. No one needs to know who we take care of or who we preach to.

What's next, timesheets to see how MUCH we preach? visitation sheets to see how we are preaching to?
Welcome to the world of the JW's !

If you give and care Christ knows and He knows WHy you do it.

You know what is the number 1 evidence of God's grace" of having the HS?
Not talking about what OTHERS ARE DOING OR NOT DOING !

PaulSacramento wrote: Why should any Christian look to see what another is doing? IF they are doing "enough"?

Who's place is it to judge our belief? our acts? is it not God's?

And if not God's then why are you looking to what your brother does or doesn't do ?

SoCalExile wrote:My points are being ignored, but I'll make them anyway.

Ephesians 2:10 does not guarantee good works , to say so, again, contradicts Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6. What Paul must be saying is that there is no room to boast, because you and any works you manage to do aren't your own either; they were laid out by God; who btw, knows aready where we will succeed or fail and yet His grace is still free, and not a loan.

RickD wrote: The comparison with tongues, was supposed to show you that just as tongues being an indicator of salvation isn't biblical, in the same way, works being an indicator of salvation is not biblical.

But getting to your last paragraph:

So if grace causes salvation and salvation in turn causes good works, then the assertion that salvation causes good works does not add to or replace grace. It actually reinforces the primacy of grace by recognizing that both salvation and good works both have their primary cause in grace.

We both agree that salvation is by grace through faith. But, Where are you getting the assertion that salvation causes good works necessarily? In order for a believer to grow and mature, which results in good works, the believer must cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Good works aren't a necessary byproduct of salvation. Otherwise as SoCal has already pointed out, there would be no need for James to instruct Christians on how to be a good disciple.

DBowling wrote:

SoCalExile wrote:My points are being ignored, but I'll make them anyway.

Ephesians 2:10 does not guarantee good works , to say so, again, contradicts Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6. What Paul must be saying is that there is no room to boast, because you and any works you manage to do aren't your own either; they were laid out by God; who btw, knows aready where we will succeed or fail and yet His grace is still free, and not a loan.

Ephesians 2:10 specifically states that we are saved by grace through faith to do good works.

I haven't ignored your point. In fact I have already responded to your assertion that Romans 4:5 contradicts the position that the result of genuine faith is good works.
Again Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6 are speaking to the enabler or cause of salvation not the results of salvation.
Not acknowledging (or possibly simply ignoring) the difference between being the cause of something and being the effect of something appears to be one of the reasons you continue to misapply Romans 4:5 and Romans 11:6 in this discussion.

In Christ