Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:

Nicki wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I guess there was no motion if no one saw or measured it.
Maybe you can try and understand what my wife posted.

I'm inclined to agree with the non-Christians - maths and physics are the study and measuring of the natural world, not part of the natural world itself. Things still move if no one measures their speed, it's just that no one knows how fast they're going. A certain kind of plant may have grown to a certain height before anyone came along and said it was ten inches high, then someone else said it was 25 centimetres, and another person three hand-widths. God made (one way or another) the plant to grow as it did and I suppose he knew people would be able to measure it in different ways, but that's not a quality of the plant in itself.

The speed would still be the same even if no one measured it and the plant would still have grown to the same height if no one measured it.

You are confusing the essences of math/physics with the process of math/physics.

Math and physics are ways of expressing what is happening in the observable world ( and beyond perhaps), BUT they ARE happening.

I wouldn't phrase it that way, I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Ken

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I think Math is the universal language
Dated back thousands of years but the Pythagorus theorem which has its roots around 2,500 years ago cemented in academia clearly shows an understanding of both ancient and recent calculations.
It matters not whether we have 5 fingers or 6 or 7,
Mathematical principals remain the same.

Light exist by itself

.
Nothing exists by itself … save One, who is Three.

Unlike triangles, it's existence is not in reference to something else

everything's existence is in reference to something else… or it does not, cannot exist. Isn't “the speed of light” in reference of one objects ability to move in reference to another's ?


Look Ken, IMO this conversation has evolved dramatically from a “how do you want to number it” perspective. Yes, most certainly if you would go from a 10 digit system to 12 there would be many occurrences of change. I agree.

I don't care how you number it… just that it has a number, and has had, before we arrived on the scene, expressed any way you wish .

I used the reference of light for exactly this reason, it is not just in existence by itself. It is a byproduct of radiation's effects under tremendous forces of nature over a great period of time. The stars have been producing that light at that speed for much longer than the 200K yr. we've, as a species, been available to “name” what stars do and what emissions they project.

So the questions becomes not how you name it but how long has it been here, unnamed before our arrival,
but none the less producing all the mathematical proofs for our term “physics” ?

In other words Ken, how long has the universe shown signs of intelligent design ( if you consider higher mathmatics / physics, intelligent thought) before we got here . We've discovered, uncovered so many “things” about our universe through our intellect that to not notice the same / greater intellectual requirement to bring about the “reality”, the very actions of a live and vibrant universe …. seeing the “forest for the trees” of the inner (mathematical) workings of why everything is the way it is both for us individually and in the universe at large.
To not notice, IMO is intellectual dishonesty.

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage. As I said before; that's what separates us from the monkeys!

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage.

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Ken let me break this down in real terms.
My hubby is building a cubby house.
He knows his dimensions, his materials and his plan.
If calculations are ill fitting it won't come to fruition but regardless of poor calculations maths are absolute.

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage.

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Ken let me break this down in real terms.
My hubby is building a cubby house.
He knows his dimensions, his materials and his plan.
If calculations are ill fitting it won't come to fruition but regardless of poor calculations maths are absolute.

Speed of light:
299 792 458 m / s

Light is that fast because that is how fast it is and it was that fast BEFORE anyone was able to come to terms with measurement OR time.

In short, the speed of light was THAT speed before the understanding of time and measure ( and even speed) came to exist.

melanie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage.

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Ken let me break this down in real terms.
My hubby is building a cubby house.
He knows his dimensions, his materials and his plan.
If calculations are ill fitting it won't come to fruition but regardless of poor calculations maths are absolute.

You didn't answer my question and yes you are misunderstanding the problem you're facing. It is NOT the case that we observe then formulate mathematical equations to fit the observations. It is the exact opposite. Mathematical theories are formulated and (assuming the math is correct, i.e. there are no errors) those theories predict something about the physical reality. Everybody laughs and goes on their merry way. Until such time, that is, that the thing we never knew existed that was predicted by the mathematical theory is discovered to really exist. It's not a coincidence, and it's not a one-time thing. Math consistently makes predictions about the real world that are consistently extremely accurate. How can that be?

melanie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage.

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Ken let me break this down in real terms.
My hubby is building a cubby house.
He knows his dimensions, his materials and his plan.
If calculations are ill fitting it won't come to fruition but regardless of poor calculations maths are absolute.

Byblos wrote: You didn't answer my question and yes you are misunderstanding the problem you're facing. It is NOT the case that we observe then formulate mathematical equations to fit the observations. It is the exact opposite. Mathematical theories are formulated

Formulated by who? They didn't formulate themselves; they were formulated by people; right?

Byblos wrote: and (assuming the math is correct, i.e. there are no errors) those theories predict something about the physical reality.

Is it the theories that are actually predicting something about the physical reality, or the people who formulated those theories that are doing the predicting? I say the latter

Byblos wrote: Math consistently makes predictions about the real world that are consistently extremely accurate. How can that be?

I say it is the people who are using math who are consistently making those predictions about the real world that are consistently accurate. After all if people didn't exist, those predictions would not be made; right?

Ken

melanie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage.

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Ken let me break this down in real terms.
My hubby is building a cubby house.
He knows his dimensions, his materials and his plan.
If calculations are ill fitting it won't come to fruition but regardless of poor calculations maths are absolute.

Exactly! It isn't like "math" is actually building this club house, It is your husband who is using math to build it. If things turn out wrong, he can't blame math, he has to blame himself because he made a mistake in applying math. Agree?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

melanie wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote:

Kenny wrote:I would say math and physics are systems people put in place to measure and calculate things and things that happen in the observable world (and beyond perhaps). IOW The math and physics doesn't happen, it is just more of a tool we use to measure things that do happens.

Then I will remind you that you still haven't answered my question. How do you resolve the seemingly unresolvable problem of an abstract concept created only in the mind having predictability powers over the physical world. You can't ignore this and hope it goes away Kenny.

I thought I did answer the question. Let me put it this way; what you call an abstract concept created only in the mind I call an idea, plan, or created system. What you call predictability powers, I call the ability to predict. So your question is, how do I explain how a plan, idea, or system could have the ability to predict what goes on in the physical world? I would say people observe what happens in the physical world then they come up with ideas and plans to predict what might happen next so they can use this information to their advantage.

Ken
ps I've got a feeling I might be understanding you; if I didn't answer your question correctly, perhaps you can phrase it another way

Ken let me break this down in real terms.
My hubby is building a cubby house.
He knows his dimensions, his materials and his plan.
If calculations are ill fitting it won't come to fruition but regardless of poor calculations maths are absolute.

Exactly! It isn't like "math" is actually building this club house, It is your husband who is using math to build it. If things turn out wrong, he can't blame math, he has to blame himself because he made a mistake in applying math. Agree?

Ken

So Kenny,

You agree with what Melanie said, that maths are absolute? Absolute being defined as:

viewed or existing independently and not in relation to other things; not relative or comparative.

Light exist by itself

.
Nothing exists by itself … save One, who is Three.

Unlike triangles, it's existence is not in reference to something else

EssentialSacrifice wrote:everything's existence is in reference to something else… or it does not, cannot exist.

I disagree. Material things exist by themselves; they have an actual existence. I exist, and I don’t only exist when referenced to something or someone else.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Isn't “the speed of light” in reference of one objects ability to move in reference to another's ?

The speed of light is, but light itself is not, light has an actual existence.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Look Ken, IMO this conversation has evolved dramatically from a “how do you want to number it” perspective. Yes, most certainly if you would go from a 10 digit system to 12 there would be many occurrences of change. I agree.

I don't care how you number it… just that it has a number, and has had, before we arrived on the scene, expressed any way you wish .

[/quote]
Help me understand what you are saying; are you suggesting numbers, math, and physics have an actual existence? Like some type of an invisible, undetectable force that is actually doing things and getting things done? Before I answer the rest of your questions, I would like a clear understanding of exactly what you are saying because as absurd as that sounds, that is what it sounds like you are suggesting to me.


Ken

Hi Ken,

is not it great that the world is describable by math and physics?
how that can be? why are there rules?

p.s. i view math and physics as language.

Kenny wrote:

Byblos wrote: Math consistently makes predictions about the real world that are consistently extremely accurate. How can that be?

I say it is the people who are using math who are consistently making those predictions about the real world that are consistently accurate. After all if people didn't exist, those predictions would not be made; right?

Ken

You keep harping on the idea that if people didn't exist that somehow math would not exist. Would physics, chemistry, biology stop existing too? How about this thought experiment, if humans went extinct and in a billion years or so chimps evolved into rational beings, what do you think they would discover about the sum of 2 + 2?

I will do some harping of my own because it begs repeating over and over until you get. You are yet again confusing epistemology and ontology. What a thing is and what we know about that thing are entirely different branches of rational thought. Unless and until you get that these discussions with you are pointless.