Evidence for God from Science

When a person does NOT want to believe OR understand they will find every possible venue to NOT believe and NOT understand.

alexXcJRO wrote:-->Mallz :"Are you serious? You need to seriously improve your reading comprehension. Your answer is up there. Per the scriptures (since you obviously need it spelled out), God did not command, nor mention, nor did it enter his mind for 'them' to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal
You aren't even talking intelligently... Are you starting to see how you come off here?"

-->belcainsbrother: "No contradiction. You're ignoring that God did not command his people to sacrifice humans to him like other god's. Even when it comes to Abraham he stopped Abraham and Isaac was not sacrificed and it was a prophecy like I explained. You are reading things into it that are not there. You should be bashing Baal instead,not YHWH. You're trying to turn YHWH into a god like Baal. Also religious Jews have never sacrificed babies in a fire to YHWH,this proves that you are interpreting it wrong because Jews would be doing it if God was like that but he is'nt and never has been."

Jeremiah 19:5King James Version (KJV)

"5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"

You didn't understood what i meant . I didn't said God said to the men in the Valley of Benhinnom to do human sacrifices.
I'll explain again :
1.The bible says God condemned the men in the Valley of Benhinnom for offering their sons as burnt offerings to Baal and said he didn't command, told them to do these vile things and he didn't even think of commanding, and saying to them to do these vile things .
2.The bible says God thought of testing Abraham by asking him to kill his son as burnt offering to him and he did.
3.The bible says Jephthah gave his virgin daughter who was like a child as a propitiatory offering to God or simply put it offered her as burnt offering to God in exchange for helping him defeat the Ammonites.

If God said he didn't even thing of commanding such vile thing to the men in the Valley of Benhinnom why did he thought and commanded such vile thing to Abraham?
If God said offering your son as burnt offerings to Baal is such a vile thing to do , why did he not stop Jepthah from offering his small daughter as a burnt offering in exchange for help he received from God,like he did with Abraham?
Can an all powerful and all loving God in his infinite wisdom be hypocritical ?

Also an omniscient God can't say he didn't thought of something that men might do ,because he knows everything and every thought of every men before every one of them is even born. .

I gave you a genuine chance to understand but I can see that you already have your mind made up and you are being hard-headed and obtuse so I'm no longer going to play your game. You read it anyway you choose to and be wrong if you choose to but nobody who reads the bible has overlooked something you think was overlooked and think it needs to be pointed out,nor follows it like you do.Nobody does the things you imply the bible said to do. Let me know when you are ready to get serious when it comes to evidence because you are not serious about it and are just going on your opinion.Nobody can change your mind,only you can do it based on evidence and you're ignoring it.

this is so much fun. Like someone going to a book club about Moby Dick, but bringing The Hunger Games, and still chiming in.

-->Kurieuo:"Is God omniscient Alex?"

So what are you saying, he is not omniscient?

But by being an all powerful God it means he is omniscient(knows all) and omnipresent(present in every point of time and space).If is not omniscient means he is not all powerful.

-->PaulSacramento:"When a person does NOT want to believe OR understand they will find every possible venue to NOT believe and NOT understand."


-->abelcainsbrother: "I gave you a genuine chance to understand but I can see that you already have your mind made up and you are being hard-headed and obtuse so I'm no longer going to play your game. You read it anyway you choose to and be wrong if you choose to but nobody who reads the bible has overlooked something you think was overlooked and think it needs to be pointed out,nor follows it like you do.Nobody does the things you imply the bible said to do. Let me know when you are ready to get serious when it comes to evidence because you are not serious about it and are just going on your opinion.Nobody can change your mind,only you can do it based on evidence and you're ignoring it."

Why i so hard to understand. It's just simple logic God being all powerful therefore omniscient(knows all) he can't say he didn't think of something men might do or be surprised. He had seen their thoughts and actions prior to their existence.
So i guess you all have hit a wall .No more contra-arguments .
The line :"God is mysterious " and i can't understand him is stupid, how can my logic be so faulty when he is supposed to have made me in his image?

alexXcJRO wrote:-->Kurieuo:"Is God omniscient Alex?"

So what are you saying, he is not omniscient?

But by being an all powerful God it means he is omniscient(knows all) and omnipresent(present in every point of time and space).If is not omniscient means he is not all powerful.

It doesn't matter what I think really, but I just notice that you're characterizing God this way and that. I wonder whether you see the logical arguments and reasons behind such, or whether you're just whimsically believing if God exists, that God must be omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent.

You seem to know an awful lot about what God is like.

-->Kurieuo: It doesn't matter what I think really, but I just notice that you're characterizing God this way and that. I wonder whether you see the logical arguments and reasons behind such, or whether you're just whimsically believing if God exists, that God must be omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent.

You seem to know an awful lot about what God is like."

Your embarrassing yourself now. Its all Christians(Augustinians, Arminians and Universalists) who say that God is this perfect being with the following attributes: all loving therefore all merciful, all powerful therefore omniscient and omnipresent, with an infinite wisdom therefore his justice is perfect.I am not assuming this. Aren't you a Christian?
I started from the premise that these attributes are true .But studying the bible i found contradictions that say otherwise.

Forgive me, I'm quite embarrassed now.

alexXcJRO wrote:-->Kurieuo:"Is God omniscient Alex?"

So what are you saying, he is not omniscient?

But by being an all powerful God it means he is omniscient(knows all) and omnipresent(present in every point of time and space).If is not omniscient means he is not all powerful.

-->PaulSacramento:"When a person does NOT want to believe OR understand they will find every possible venue to NOT believe and NOT understand."


-->abelcainsbrother: "I gave you a genuine chance to understand but I can see that you already have your mind made up and you are being hard-headed and obtuse so I'm no longer going to play your game. You read it anyway you choose to and be wrong if you choose to but nobody who reads the bible has overlooked something you think was overlooked and think it needs to be pointed out,nor follows it like you do.Nobody does the things you imply the bible said to do. Let me know when you are ready to get serious when it comes to evidence because you are not serious about it and are just going on your opinion.Nobody can change your mind,only you can do it based on evidence and you're ignoring it."

Why i so hard to understand. It's just simple logic God being all powerful therefore omniscient(knows all) he can't say he didn't think of something men might do or be surprised. He had seen their thoughts and actions prior to their existence.
So i guess you all have hit a wall .No more contra-arguments .
The line :"God is mysterious " and i can't understand him is stupid, how can my logic be so faulty when he is supposed to have made me in his image?

Why do you claim God can't do that? How could man relate to God if he just showed off all the time? There are hundreds of prophecies that shows us God is all knowing but if he just showed off all the time? Why do you think God can't talk to us on a level we can understand especially if he's trying to teach us something?

-->abelcainsbrother: "Why do you claim God can't do that? How could man relate to God if he just showed off all the time? There are hundreds of prophecies that shows us God is all knowing but if he just showed off all the time? Why do you think God can't talk to us on a level we can understand especially if he's trying to teach us something?"

What is God trying to teach us by saying "neither came it into my mind"?
Why is God criticizing the men in the Valley of Benhinnom for practising human sacrifice when he sugested such things to Abraham and he condoned it with Jephthah?
My arrogance may not be related to God , but my logic and my mental faculties i think come from God ?

Alex! Hi. I am a frequent contributor to the 'God and Science' forum here, being a scientist, but rather less involved in this 'Bible and Scripture' forum, not being a specialist in this field. However, I have come to see that many of the contributors to various of the discussions work very much from a literalist standpoint, which often leads to non-sequiturs or, as you have noticed, direct contradictions. Fortunately, most Christians do not have such a literalist interpretation, and invariably extend the question, What does the Bible say? to, What does the Bible mean? which is often much more rational.

From a very early stage in Israelite history, human sacrifices were distinctly taboo, which was not necessarily the case among neighbouring tribes, and helped to set the Israelites apart. However, sacrificing oneself, or one's most important possession/s to propitiate God was a slightly different case, epitomised in the Christian tradition by the sacrifice of Christ, the 'son of God'. (A similar tradition led to the deaths of so many martyrs in days gone by, and is even reflected today in the suicide bombings of Isis). In keeping with his repudiation, God had no intention of accepting either the sacrifice of Abraham's son or Jephtha's daughter. The first, of course, he stopped, and the second (of far less consequence as she was only a girl) was an unfortunate mistake, the consequence of a rash promise similar to many other similar tales from the ancient Middle East and Mediterranean. In the days before writing could demonstrate that a contract had been made, an inviolate verbal 'oath' was one of most sacrosanct procedures known to civilisation, and the story of Jephtha illustrates not only its importance, but also the necessity of not making rash ones. This story is more to do with practical social cohesion than the worship of God.

I do not know how many of your original questions you were really looking for answers to. The innocent children drowned in the flood? Of course the flood narrative falls apart at points like these if taken literally, and of course it's not to be taken literally. It's a story about a new contract between God and man, and the incidental details are not relevant, even though they appear so unjust when examined in detail. If the story is based on a real flood, then innocent people probably died; that's what happens in floods.

Your OP begins "I had believe 10 years that the Bible is true." What does this mean? What did you think of the bible more than 10 years ago, and what did you think was meant by "the Bible is true"? If you were taught, and believed, that the bible was literally true, you seem to have taken rather a long time to change your mind, if I may say so.

alexXcJRO wrote:-->abelcainsbrother: "Why do you claim God can't do that? How could man relate to God if he just showed off all the time? There are hundreds of prophecies that shows us God is all knowing but if he just showed off all the time? Why do you think God can't talk to us on a level we can understand especially if he's trying to teach us something?"

What is God trying to teach us by saying "neither came it into my mind"?
Why is God criticizing the men in the Valley of Benhinnom for practising human sacrifice when he sugested such things to Abraham and he condoned it with Jephthah?
My arrogance may not be related to God , but my logic and my mental faculties i think come from God ?

Wish You Could Hear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwlzD6zqpgY

-->hughfarey: "and the second (of far less consequence as she was only a girl) was an unfortunate mistake,"

So what are you saying its ok she died she was just a girl. God saved Abraham boy just because he was a boy and let her die because she was a girl, thats stupid and absurd. There shouldn't have been any mistake when you have God this perfect being. When Jephtha was about "to lit the match " God should have stopped him,from the point of Jephtha the contract was fulfilled at that millisecond when he was about to start the fire.
So what you are saying its ok from your perspective that God commits genocide , kills without impunity children,innocents . Condones human sacrifice, murder, rape, slavery . God being God he can do whatever he wants, but don't lie to me and yourself by saying he is benevolent,all loving and that his wisdom and mercy is infinite.

-->hughfarey:"Fortunately, most Christians do not have such a literalist interpretation, and invariably extend the question, What does the Bible say? to, What does the Bible mean? which is often much more rational."

Let's look at this verse:
“7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever.”
The phrase says "God, who lives for ever and ever" literally means that God lives forever,an eternity never dies.
What would you say this verse means?

"So what you are saying is..."
"Don't lie ... by saying..."

No, I'm not saying that; and therefore I'm not lying to you. Deciding to take offence before actually finding out what your correspondent means is not a healthy method of discussion. Why not rewind and have another look?

I do not take the bible as a literal account of what happened, nor the anthropomorphising of God as an inviolate guide to his character. The books of the Old Testament which are 'histories' are unlikely to be precisely accurate, and include a number of legendary elements. The point about them is that they relate the growing understanding of God among the Jews, and by extension Christians and to a certain extent Muslims too. If you want to know why, in the stories, Abraham was prevented from killing his son, but Jephtha was not prevented from killing his daughter, you must first look at the context in which these stories appear, and the point of the stories themselves, which I see you ignored in your intemperance.

"So what are you saying its ok she died she was just a girl." No, read my words again. I didn't say that, nor implied it. I said that the death of a girl was of less consequence than that of a boy, and so it was. The equality of woman with man is hinted at in Genesis 1, but specifically denied, repeatedly, in Genesis 2 and thereafter. In that culture, at that time, daughters were of far less consequence than sons, and stories about their sacrifice were less shocking than similar stories about sons. You simply said that it was "stupid and absurd", which lacks understanding of the context. We no longer believe that women are inherently subservient to men. You also fail to understand the context of an all-powerful God. If, by definition, God cannot be "stupid and absurd", then those occasions when you perceive him to be so must be misunderstandings on your part, not failings on his.

"So what you are saying its ok from your perspective that God commits genocide, kills without impunity children,innocents . Condones human sacrifice, murder, rape, slavery." What a ridiculous idea. Wherever did that come from?

"But don't lie to me and yourself by saying he is benevolent,all loving and that his wisdom and mercy is infinite." I wouldn't dream of lying to you, and I didn't. The problem of human suffering is an extremely complex philosophical as well as theological conundrum, and I've no intention of exploring it here. What I will say is that if you meet someone who tells you they believe in a loving God, and you say that letting little children die is not an obvious example of that, you can be sure that your 'opponent' agrees with you. Rather than writing off his ideas as "stupid and absurd", you might like to ask him why he believes what he does.

Oh, and all that stuff about angels and bowls filled with the wrath of God? I've no idea what it means, but I'm not so arrogant as to imagine that two thousand years of exegesis must be "stupid and absurd" just because I don't instantly see its point.

hughfarey wrote:Oh, and all that stuff about angels and bowls filled with the wrath of God? I've no idea what it means, but I'm not so arrogant as to imagine that two thousand years of exegesis must be "stupid and absurd" just because I don't instantly see its point.

But if something really bakes my noodle about what's written in The Old Testament, I will lean on my female Rabbi friend I met in college. She is the wisest human being I have met.

I think everyone who is an avid biblical scholar should have a Rabbi friend.