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Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:27 pm
by Audie
Jac3510 wrote:Yes, he said "all the evidence." Are you going to say that, for Wise, "all the evidence" means all evidence including Scripture? Obviously not, because if the Scriptural evidence did not indicate a global flood, then he would affirm that one really happened, now would he? Isn't it obvious, then, that he's referring to scientific evidence?
Again, Audie, the real point here is very basic: Wise regards the biblical data as evidence that ought to be factored in when making statements about the nature of reality. At worst, you don't think it is evidence at all; at best, you think it should be weighted very lightly. You and Wise disagree on that. All I'm wanting from you is to stop misrepresenting his position. I'm not asking you to AGREE. I'm asking you not to be dishonest. Because right now the only person putting the conclusion first is you. You are suggesting, whether you intend it or not, that the biblical evidence ought not be considered evidence because it does not comport with science. And that's a perfectly fine position to hold, but to accuse someone else of being dishonest because they disagree with that assessment is where the question gets begged; for the debate between you and Wise would be whether or not the biblical evidence ought to be regarded and if so how seriously. For you to conclude he is dishonest because he has not already accepted your conclusion on the matter is dishonest on your part, and then for you to interpret his words in the most uncharitable manner to fit with your preconceived notion of him beind intellectually dishonest is both dishonest in itself and beneath you.
And as to your hypothetical, if this were a trial in a third world country, then no, his honesty would not come into question. I would approach it exactly as I am asking you to approach it. I would get him to confirm that he regards the Bible as evidence. I would get him to confirm that he regards the scientific data as evidence. I would then get him to say publically how he weights the evidence. I would then ask how many other experts weighted the evidence as he does and I would present my case to the jury that, in light of other expert testimony, that they are under no obligation to weight the evidence as Wise does, and that they can disagree with him even though they do not have his professional expertise. And if you want to try to use this as evidence against God, then please feel free to do so. I don't see how such a connection could be made, but if you want to put it in a syllogism, then I'd love to evaluate it.
So, I'm sorry if you find it clinically interesting that we should insist on rigorous logic and denying that anyone one either side should overstate their case. Your conclusion can be right, Audie, while your reasoning can be all wrong. And putting words in people's mouths ("feeling") and misrepresenting their position ("all the evidence") to sustain a preconceived conclusion (question begging) is wrong reasoning. You rightly expect better of us, and I expect better from you.
You are of course wrong on all the fallacies you
feel you've detected, as well as, but never mind.
Fun talking, I'm off to Hong Kong tomorrow, getting excited about that like
I always do, so I'm not up to concentrating on this.
Thanks for your thoughts, not all of them are wrong!
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:09 pm
by Philip
WHATEVER the case might be about the AGES of the earth, the universe, man, Adam, the flood, etc., the many, many scientific evidences from many fields and cross-validating evidences that all point to a great age should never be casually dismissed. That just cannot be an accident! And we're told that the creation is ANOTHER witness to God's majesty! This is NOT a case of people only wanting to validate a pre-conceived notion. Good science doesn't work like that. But to look for evidence of a specific event, scientifically, one must know WHERE to look, during what era, and know the magnitude. Time, processes and subsequent processes confuse and eradicate much of the data. And so the greater the passage of time from any given event, the much more difficult to precisely validate the age of that event. But that's merely speaking to a specific event.
Those who constantly claim that they just don't know that much about the science, or that know about the overwhelming scientific consensus of something so over-arching and foundational (the great age of things) but just assume that it's wrong because the science has a conflict with their dogmatic view of Scripture (see, it can cut both ways), should at least be open to the fact that it's not a cut and dried thing. I could understand it more if there was massive disagreement and enormous conflicting or uncertain data between countless studies and the wide variety of scientific disciplines, but that is definitely not the case. God gave us the incredible consistency of processes, and how things work according to His instructions of how they are to function (thus, the laws of such). He also gave us the ability to develop the scientific method, and showed us that repeated and rigorous use of it produces results we can typically trust, at least on certain levels. And it's how we know many of the things we previously did not. One must truly wonder why God would (yes, I know, I know...) give us ANOTHER testimony, that He well knew we would intensively study, that would also confuse our key understandings - particularly as He knew it would impact how people view Scripture and their trust of it. And I certainly don't think God would want us to simply ignore the conclusions of what massive studies of His "other" witness consistently reveal. How could we - we're modern people living in the scientific age. And there does seem to be rather an arrogance and superior air about those who insist THEY take Scripture far more seriously because they take a literal view of it in some areas, and yet not so literal in other areas. That's just wrong!
But I also find it wrong to casually ignore overwhelming scientific conclusions from so many fields. Most I see that disbelieve the science (because it supposedly contradicts what the Bible reveals) assert that things haven't always worked as they do now - and yet with exceptionally problematic issues that assertion raises. But God has given us the consistency of how things work, and good reason to trust the results (within reason) of the scientific method. Now, there are things which science discovers that could reasonably have multiple explanations. But to be so wrong when searching so hard by studying God's handiwork intensely, and for so long. I'd think He would want our studies to validate the truth of the object of such studies - as they point to Him - either that or He'd rather we just ignore the conclusions of so much science. SHOULD we? And how COULD we? That would be dishonest. And if everything in Scripture was meant to be taken both literally AND as SCIENTIFIC fact, well, I would be dogmatic as well. But they aren't and I'm not! All I know is that, SOMEHOW, Scripture is accurate and true. That's enough for me!
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:17 pm
by crochet1949
Phillip you put it very well -- "All I know is that, Somehow, Scripture IS accurate and true. That's enough for me."
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:39 am
by Audie
crochet1949 wrote:Phillip you put it very well -- "All I know is that, Somehow, Scripture IS accurate and true. That's enough for me."
Would not be enough for me. I'd like to know what it actually means, else its just gibberish.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:13 pm
by RickD
Audie wrote:crochet1949 wrote:Phillip you put it very well -- "All I know is that, Somehow, Scripture IS accurate and true. That's enough for me."
Would not be enough for me. I'd like to know what it actually means, else its just gibberish.
Audie,
There's a reason that scripture is gibberish to you.
1 Corinthians 2:14
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:17 pm
by Audie
RickD wrote:Audie wrote:crochet1949 wrote:Phillip you put it very well -- "All I know is that, Somehow, Scripture IS accurate and true. That's enough for me."
Would not be enough for me. I'd like to know what it actually means, else its just gibberish.
Audie,
There's a reason that scripture is gibberish to you.
1 Corinthians 2:14
Soon as "you guys' can agree on what it says, be sure to let me know.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:20 pm
by crochet1949
People need to have a basis For what they Believe -- some things are Right other things are Wrong. What is the determining factor.
In the world of Law -- does a lawyer Always know what it 'actually' means?!
In God's Word -- does everyone know exactly what every word Actually means? No. Translating from one language to another. Many times there is No word that has the exact word in another language. Alphabets are different. A person takes a phrase in One language and translates it as clearly as possible into the Other language. "As clearly as possible" .
It's Also possible that that which is being translated is not popular or easy to listen to or read about. But it's True just the same. And That cannot be blamed on the translator / translation.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:26 pm
by Audie
duplicate
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:26 pm
by Audie
crochet1949 wrote:People need to have a basis For what they Believe -- some things are Right other things are Wrong. What is the determining factor
The ones who dont are generally referred to as sociopaths.
In the world of Law -- does a lawyer Always know what it 'actually' means?!
Not always, that is what courtrooms are for. BUT, believe me, you write a contract that is open to anyone to interpret as they feel inspired to interpret it is no contract at all.
A document that talks about a "Flood" that means anything from allegory to a world destroying catastrophe, to TWO such floods, well...
In God's Word -- does everyone know exactly what every word Actually means? No. Translating from one language to another. Many times there is No word that has the exact word in another language. Alphabets are different. A person takes a phrase in One language and translates it as clearly as possible into the Other language. "As clearly as possible" .
If that were the only problem it wouldnt be a problem. That different readings are way way way deeper than that. Christians cant even resolve whether God is a monster who killed every living thing on earth (once, or twice?) or if it is just a story.
It's Also possible that that which is being translated is not popular or easy to listen to or read about.
Likewise, it is possible, demonstrated many times, that people read in what they want to see. Torture those who dont agree? Black slavery? Burn witches? It is all there, if you want to see it.
But it's True just the same. And That cannot be blamed on the translator / translation
Perhaps "it" is true. But, the actual question here was, what is "it"?
Hardly any two agree. For whom doth Corinthians toll?
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:30 pm
by crochet1949
Well -- I Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
The 'natural' man / person is the person who has not accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior and therefore does not understand Scripture -- and That is because the Holy Spirit has not come to indwell that person and Therefore that person does Not have any understanding of God's Word. No appreciation For it. No real caring for / about God's authority.
A person can look at American history through reading history books and find Those things. Well -- most Every country in this world has history they aren't proud of. Does a person blame God for Hitler's actions -- he was elected by German's citizens.
People are being tortured Today for taking a stand for God.
God did Not create Puppets -- He Did create us as unique individuals with freedom of choice -- and with Choice comes consequences both good and Bad.
Okay --let's take Another look at that flood -- Genesis tells us that God gave Noah directions for building it-- the Purpose? God Also gave Noah and his family a message for Everyone who heard about that 'strange' thing he was building. They were told over the span of 120 years about their SIN -- a great deal of SIN --
Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
vs 6 "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
vs7 "So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
And the rest - as they say - is History. And is sounds like mankind was the monster Not God. God gave Plenty of warning and the solution to their problem. But 'they' would not listen.
So - just Maybe we Should be considering the Why of that Flood -- isn't mankind heading that same direction NOW?! and what are We doing? Are We listening? What are We doing with God's Word NOW.
Mankind -- We Need laws and we need to obey them. And Where do we get those laws.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:36 pm
by Audie
crochet1949 wrote:Well -- I Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
The 'natural' man / person is the person who has not accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior and therefore does not understand Scripture -- and That is because the Holy Spirit has not come to indwell that person and Therefore that person does Not have any understanding of God's Word. No appreciation For it. No real caring for / about God's authority.
A person can look at American history through reading history books and find Those things. Well -- most Every country in this world has history they aren't proud of. Does a person blame God for Hitler's actions -- he was elected by German's citizens.
People are being tortured Today for taking a stand for God.
God did Not create Puppets -- He Did create us as unique individuals with freedom of choice -- and with Choice comes consequences both good and Bad.
Okay --let's take Another look at that flood -- Genesis tells us that God gave Noah directions for building it-- the Purpose? God Also gave Noah and his family a message for Everyone who heard about that 'strange' thing he was building. They were told over the span of 120 years about their SIN -- a great deal of SIN --
Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
vs 6 "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
vs7 "So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
And the rest - as they say - is History. And is sounds like mankind was the monster Not God. God gave Plenty of warning and the solution to their problem. But 'they' would not listen.
So - just Maybe we Should be considering the Why of that Flood -- isn't mankind heading that same direction NOW?! and what are We doing? Are We listening? What are We doing with God's Word NOW.
Mankind -- We Need laws and we need to obey them. And Where do we get those laws.
I kinda dont think you took any note of what I said.
If this spiritual discernment actually worked, then it would not all be lo here, and, lo there.
Look at the Chridtians in this forum with wildly divergent god inspired spiritually discerned
polar opposite readings.
And, for that matter if it worked, nobody could go so wrong as to think there actually
was such a flood.
There wasn't! It is as phony as if I called the police to complain of a million-strong buffalo herd
trampling thro' my house. When they came and found a fresh clean carpet, the petunias
in good order, the back fence standing, they might grow dubious. The neighbours report no sightings;
no hoof prints nor dropping, nor yet lingering odor. Aerial surveillance fails to find the herd.
Maybe the buffalo herd story is just a story? The police will not be amused.
Yet, the flood, even more fantastical, shown a phony a million times over in the
most obvious ways still has it's believers, who, yes, were guided by god, they
say, to see it as Truth?
What is going on? Would it kill a person to open his eyes?
I cant be part of such.
It is a pure and total deal-killer; one might as well say he'd
spiritually discerned that Australia is at the north pole. THAT of course, might
some distant day actually happen. The noah story isnt and never will be true.
I coild no more be part of such a faith than I could be of one that insisted
on the hyperboreal Oz as an article of faith, and of course, a matter of simple reality.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:13 pm
by crochet1949
Audie -- sorry you feel that way. Maybe it all boils down to the fact that people don't want to acknowledge the existence of sin. We'd Rather just go about our own business and do what we want to do and never mind what God says. And it's Also satan getting in there and whispering in our ears -- God wouldn't Really kill those people because of their being human. So we simply are writing it off as a story - and a not so Nice a story at that.
And, yes, lots of people around here have varying views of lots of Scripture. So - a discerning spirit?! It proves to provide for good, vigorous discussion / makes us Think. We Can learn from each other. And, sometimes what we learn is that "'boy, are They ever out on left field in That area".
Now, you Are willing to say that Some distant day Australia Might actually be at the north pole. But NO WAY to the Noah story. That is Interesting.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:36 pm
by abelcainsbrother
Audie wrote:crochet1949 wrote:Well -- I Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
The 'natural' man / person is the person who has not accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior and therefore does not understand Scripture -- and That is because the Holy Spirit has not come to indwell that person and Therefore that person does Not have any understanding of God's Word. No appreciation For it. No real caring for / about God's authority.
A person can look at American history through reading history books and find Those things. Well -- most Every country in this world has history they aren't proud of. Does a person blame God for Hitler's actions -- he was elected by German's citizens.
People are being tortured Today for taking a stand for God.
God did Not create Puppets -- He Did create us as unique individuals with freedom of choice -- and with Choice comes consequences both good and Bad.
Okay --let's take Another look at that flood -- Genesis tells us that God gave Noah directions for building it-- the Purpose? God Also gave Noah and his family a message for Everyone who heard about that 'strange' thing he was building. They were told over the span of 120 years about their SIN -- a great deal of SIN --
Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
vs 6 "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
vs7 "So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
And the rest - as they say - is History. And is sounds like mankind was the monster Not God. God gave Plenty of warning and the solution to their problem. But 'they' would not listen.
So - just Maybe we Should be considering the Why of that Flood -- isn't mankind heading that same direction NOW?! and what are We doing? Are We listening? What are We doing with God's Word NOW.
Mankind -- We Need laws and we need to obey them. And Where do we get those laws.
I kinda dont think you took any note of what I said.
If this spiritual discernment actually worked, then it would not all be lo here, and, lo there.
Look at the Chridtians in this forum with wildly divergent god inspired spiritually discerned
polar opposite readings.
And, for that matter if it worked, nobody could go so wrong as to think there actually
was such a flood.
There wasn't! It is as phony as if I called the police to complain of a million-strong buffalo herd
trampling thro' my house. When they came and found a fresh clean carpet, the petunias
in good order, the back fence standing, they might grow dubious. The neighbours report no sightings;
no hoof prints nor dropping, nor yet lingering odor. Aerial surveillance fails to find the herd.
Maybe the buffalo herd story is just a story? The police will not be amused.
Yet, the flood, even more fantastical, shown a phony a million times over in the
most obvious ways still has it's believers, who, yes, were guided by god, they
say, to see it as Truth?
What is going on? Would it kill a person to open his eyes?
I cant be part of such.
It is a pure and total deal-killer; one might as well say he'd
spiritually discerned that Australia is at the north pole. THAT of course, might
some distant day actually happen. The noah story isnt and never will be true.
I coild no more be part of such a faith than I could be of one that insisted
on the hyperboreal Oz as an article of faith, and of course, a matter of simple reality.
So because there are differing views you can't be apart of it? You accept science though eventhough there are competing hypothesis's in science,differing interpretations of the scientific data.Are'nt you being unfair when it comes to God? Most of what we differ on is not a salvation issue. Heresies when it comes to salvation and how a person is saved are what really matters.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:51 am
by crochet1949
acb -- however, if a person does Not accept the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus Christ Or His bodily resurrection, then he won't be accepting salvation. And if that person questions the parting of the Red Sea , the burning bush, the beginnings of mankind -- then that person might as well through out the entire Bible --because it is All based on the 'miraculous'. Why do people 'fight' Biblical truths so much? Maybe because 'it' points people to a Higher Power / a supreme authority. And, a lot of people simply like a good debate. They are enjoying the intellectualism that God has given them -- thus, every doctrine imaginable is picked apart , bit by bit, until sometimes some people will start to disbelieve it. And That is part of satan's plan to get people to question God's Word. Does God Really mean what He says? Maybe the 'tone' of Biblical debate could be adjusted. Like -- isn't it Neat how God was able To...... turn the water into wine. To... talk through that burning bush. Give God the praise and glory that He really does deserve.
Re: The biblical flood date
Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:55 am
by Audie
abelcainsbrother wrote:Audie wrote:crochet1949 wrote:Well -- I Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
The 'natural' man / person is the person who has not accepted Jesus Christ as personal Savior and therefore does not understand Scripture -- and That is because the Holy Spirit has not come to indwell that person and Therefore that person does Not have any understanding of God's Word. No appreciation For it. No real caring for / about God's authority.
A person can look at American history through reading history books and find Those things. Well -- most Every country in this world has history they aren't proud of. Does a person blame God for Hitler's actions -- he was elected by German's citizens.
People are being tortured Today for taking a stand for God.
God did Not create Puppets -- He Did create us as unique individuals with freedom of choice -- and with Choice comes consequences both good and Bad.
Okay --let's take Another look at that flood -- Genesis tells us that God gave Noah directions for building it-- the Purpose? God Also gave Noah and his family a message for Everyone who heard about that 'strange' thing he was building. They were told over the span of 120 years about their SIN -- a great deal of SIN --
Genesis 6:5 "Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
vs 6 "And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
vs7 "So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
And the rest - as they say - is History. And is sounds like mankind was the monster Not God. God gave Plenty of warning and the solution to their problem. But 'they' would not listen.
So - just Maybe we Should be considering the Why of that Flood -- isn't mankind heading that same direction NOW?! and what are We doing? Are We listening? What are We doing with God's Word NOW.
Mankind -- We Need laws and we need to obey them. And Where do we get those laws.
I kinda dont think you took any note of what I said.
If this spiritual discernment actually worked, then it would not all be lo here, and, lo there.
Look at the Chridtians in this forum with wildly divergent god inspired spiritually discerned
polar opposite readings.
And, for that matter if it worked, nobody could go so wrong as to think there actually
was such a flood.
There wasn't! It is as phony as if I called the police to complain of a million-strong buffalo herd
trampling thro' my house. When they came and found a fresh clean carpet, the petunias
in good order, the back fence standing, they might grow dubious. The neighbours report no sightings;
no hoof prints nor dropping, nor yet lingering odor. Aerial surveillance fails to find the herd.
Maybe the buffalo herd story is just a story? The police will not be amused.
Yet, the flood, even more fantastical, shown a phony a million times over in the
most obvious ways still has it's believers, who, yes, were guided by god, they
say, to see it as Truth?
What is going on? Would it kill a person to open his eyes?
I cant be part of such.
It is a pure and total deal-killer; one might as well say he'd
spiritually discerned that Australia is at the north pole. THAT of course, might
some distant day actually happen. The noah story isnt and never will be true.
I coild no more be part of such a faith than I could be of one that insisted
on the hyperboreal Oz as an article of faith, and of course, a matter of simple reality.
So because there are differing views you can't be apart of it? .
All due respect ab, but you are not reading for content.
So no. That is not remotely what I said. You are so wrong that it is not even upside down and backwards.
Would you be part of a faith that
required you to believe something
that is just nonsense?
See if you can grasp that idea, and answer it. No preaching, no irrelevancies, just address that question.