Evidence for God from Science

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Kenny -- Okay -- I understand what you are saying. Everyone believes that Their belief in Their God is Obviously the Right belief. The God who I know Is the Right God is the One we learn about in God's Word. His Word.

And how is that different than what everyone else believes?

Ken

Because there are a variety of belief systems 'out there' and some of them Don't believe in the God that the Bible talks about.

There are those who take parts from Scripture and add their own thoughts to it and develop a following -- have additional books and call That 'whatever'. And some who have an entirely different book they believe with a different 'god' they believe in and are out to 'conquer' the world with whatever means they feel necessary. And a variety of Other belief systems.

The God of the Bible is One of love "For God so loved the world that He Gave...." He Wants relationship with us --He Wants us to take All our problems, cares to Him - He wants us to see Him as our stable Rock of salvation / refuge in times of Good and Bad -- as a Most reliable Friend.
But - He Also gives us Guidelines for living a good, healthy fulfilling life. AND consequences when we Don't.

Our human parents And 'ourselves' when we have children -- we have rules to follow so our kids will grow up healthy -- consequences for not 'taking out the trash when we should' / staying out past our curfew / coming home drunk / etc. -- consequences for reckless driving are sometimes harsh -- parents want to teach our kids to Avoid some things for their own good. And God is the same way.

And we Also have a heavenly home to consider -- where are We going to end up for that 'time' called Eternity.

If people believe that "all gods are created equal" ie: all belief systems are valid, basically the same, it shows they have NOT study these belief systems, NOT the basis for their views.

And, Where did all 'these 'god'' come From? I guess one obvious answer would be various cultures and the given 'mythological gods'. But, wouldn't that Also indicate that 'people' are looking for Something/ Someone? to fill a void in their lives. That people Know - somewhere 'deep inside' that there Is some sort of higher power responsible for 'that which comes out of the sky'. Before the fields of science got discovered -- people looked to nature for the direction of the given winds to determine what was going to happen. But wind patterns and such are things which are studied By -- all of That comes From.

Kenny wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:Kenny -- Okay -- I understand what you are saying. Everyone believes that Their belief in Their God is Obviously the Right belief. The God who I know Is the Right God is the One we learn about in God's Word. His Word.

And how is that different than what everyone else believes?

Ken

crochet1949 wrote: Because there are a variety of belief systems 'out there' and some of them Don't believe in the God that the Bible talks about.

Yeah....

crochet1949 wrote: There are those who take parts from Scripture and add their own thoughts to it and develop a following -- have additional books and call That 'whatever'. And some who have an entirely different book they believe with a different 'god' they believe in and are out to 'conquer' the world with whatever means they feel necessary. And a variety of Other belief systems.

You mean there are some people who want to spread their religion over the entire world? How is this different than yours?

crochet1949 wrote: The God of the Bible is One of love "For God so loved the world that He Gave...." He Wants relationship with us --He Wants us to take All our problems, cares to Him - He wants us to see Him as our stable Rock of salvation / refuge in times of Good and Bad -- as a Most reliable Friend.
But - He Also gives us Guidelines for living a good, healthy fulfilling life. AND consequences when we Don't.

Our human parents And 'ourselves' when we have children -- we have rules to follow so our kids will grow up healthy -- consequences for not 'taking out the trash when we should' / staying out past our curfew / coming home drunk / etc. -- consequences for reckless driving are sometimes harsh -- parents want to teach our kids to Avoid some things for their own good. And God is the same way.

And we Also have a heavenly home to consider -- where are We going to end up for that 'time' called Eternity.

[/quote]
Perhaps all of that sounds different to you, but to me the way you describe your Deity sounds the same as the way others describe their Deity.

Ken

Ken -- the part about "a belief system that is out to convert the world to Their system by whatever means necessary or the person Will die, then and there" is Not Christianity. It is Not "for God so Loved the world that He gave....". That has been happening and continues To happen to people. And it's Not Christianity doing it.

crochet1949 wrote:Ken -- the part about "a belief system that is out to convert the world to Their system by whatever means necessary or the person Will die, then and there" is Not Christianity. It is Not "for God so Loved the world that He gave....". That has been happening and continues To happen to people. And it's Not Christianity doing it.

Most religions don't operate that way. The fact that you might be able to point to one or maybe two that do, doesn't take away from my point that your religion is as realistic and true to you as other religions are to other people

Ken

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:I mentioned several years ago, that science provides evidence for there being no real Atheists. In fact, my main line of response against Atheism being accepted as the default position one begins life with, and really by that Antony Flew only ever meant a weak form of Atheism more resembling Agnosticism, nonetheless I believe Theism is the default position because such is what we're naturally wired with and is exhibited as we develop from babes into children.

This isn't my opinion, but rather numerous scientific studies demonstrate such is the case.

If scientific studies demonstrate humans are hardwired to believe in God, why do you suppose science is the one field of study that has more Atheists in it than anything else?

Kurieuo wrote: There are no true Atheists, that's what scientific studies suggests, and you are free to look up the ones presented in the YouTube video if you find this challenging to your lack of belief.

Hey! If it’s on youtube, it must be true right? (LOL)

The delivery method matters little to the content itself. You can freely ignore the scientific papers shown, names mentioned of those leading the studies and the like due to the "YouTube factor", but I sincerely doubt they are fabricated.

Okay; I finally looked at the entire video. The video is one that promotes theism. They show some studies that show religious belief is natural, but nowhere in the Video does it present scientific papers, or anything connected to science that says Atheism is delusional or does not exist. Only the Author of the video make this claim when voicing his opinion.

Ken

Yes, Inspiring Philosophy is Theistic, even Christian, so...??

Edit: Had to double read your words, but what you say isn't entirely true. Yes, studies show religious belief is natural. If God belief is our natural predisposition, if ALL people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God, then an Atheistic stance goes against what your natural human inclination is. You must therefore convince yourself that God doesn't exist, indeed delude yourself against deeply held concepts: "Self-delusion is the act of deceiving one's self."

Here I'll ask you a question. How do you define your Atheism: 1) Lack of belief in God, or 2) Belief that God doesn't exist? If you answer with Option 1, like many self-identifying Atheists today commonly answer, making such statements like, "God wouldn't even register in your mind except that Theists force their beliefs onto you." Clearly, scientific studies suggest you are deluding yourself since rooted in your human nature are deep seated "religious" concepts.

I haven't dug into all the papers and people presented to see how forceful a conclusion they take it to, whether they connect to logical dots through to this natural conclusion. Since many presented are Atheistic, they'd probably not want to venture there, right?

The first scientist presented is Jesse Bering, a psychological scientist who by no means identifies as Theist but rather is clearly Atheist. Bering is the really the first person quoted in the video, a quote taken from his peer reviewed article, Atheism is only skin deep: Geertz and Markússon rely mistakenly on sociodemographic data as meaningful indicators of underlying cognition:

• "Cognitive scientists of religion and evolutionary theorists alike have been increasingly arguing in recent years that religion is "natural" in the sense of being motived by core, evolved psyhological intutions."

He is author of The God Instinct, a book which

• "explores how people's everyday thoughts, behaviours and emotions betray an innate tendency to reason as though God were deeply invested in their public lives and secret affairs. In this entertaining and thought-provoking book, Jesse Bering unravels the evolutionary mystery of why we grapple for meaning, purpose and destiny in life. He argues that God is not merely an idea to be entertained or discarded based on the evidence. Nor is God a cultural invention, an existential band-aid, an opiate of the masses. Instead, Bering proposes, God is a way of thinking."

In an article he wrote for The Guardian, Bering writes:

• In general, recent findings in the cognitive sciences cast considerable doubt on the everyday atheist's assumption that religion can be explained by a simple "wish fulfilment" theory – that we believe because we wish it to be true. I do not think this type of generic explanation is entirely intellectually bankrupt but I do think it is perfectly circular. Why does ours species need to feel like there is something bigger out there or to have a sense of purpose and so on to begin with? Do other animals have these same existential needs? If not, why don't they?
  
  These are not just aimless psychological musings. Many scientists believe human beings evolved a suite of cognitive traits that are more or less unique to our species. This does not make us "better" than other animals but only different. And one of these uniquely human traits, commonly referred to as "theory of mind", is at the heart of every profound existential question you could ever hope to ask: What happens when we die? What is the meaning of life? Why do bad things happen to good people?
  
  ....
  
  Is God a human instinct? It is instinctive for us to seek a grand, moralistic mind that is not there. God is the default stance. And as I describe in The God Instinct, the illusion of God solved a very specific evolutionary problem for our ancestors – that of reputation-harming (and thus gene-compromising) gossip. By inhibiting selfish behaviours that they feared would be punished by supernatural agents, our ancestors would have promoted their prosocial reputations among actual people. But unlike any previous generation, we are now in a position to correct that wayward stance through an informed understanding of why we sense a mental presence that never was. (bold emphasis mine)

Next mentioned and presented are some studies by Dr Justin Barrett, who is from the University of Oxford’s Centre for Anthropology and Mind, and has published numerous studies. A quick Google turns up one Oxford University study he helped run which found that 'human thought processes were "rooted" to religious concepts.':

• The co-director of the project, Professor Roger Trigg, from the University of Oxford, said the research showed that religion was “not just something for a peculiar few to do on Sundays instead of playing golf”.
  “We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies,” he said.
  “This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.” (Belief in God is part of human nature - Oxford study)

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kenny wrote:
If scientific studies demonstrate humans are hardwired to believe in God, why do you suppose science is the one field of study that has more Atheists in it than anything else?

Kurieuo wrote: There are no true Atheists, that's what scientific studies suggests, and you are free to look up the ones presented in the YouTube video if you find this challenging to your lack of belief.

Hey! If it’s on youtube, it must be true right? (LOL)

The delivery method matters little to the content itself. You can freely ignore the scientific papers shown, names mentioned of those leading the studies and the like due to the "YouTube factor", but I sincerely doubt they are fabricated.

Okay; I finally looked at the entire video. The video is one that promotes theism. They show some studies that show religious belief is natural, but nowhere in the Video does it present scientific papers, or anything connected to science that says Atheism is delusional or does not exist. Only the Author of the video make this claim when voicing his opinion.

Ken

Kurieuo wrote: Yes, Inspiring Philosophy is Theistic, even Christian, so...??

Edit: Had to double read your words, but what you say isn't entirely true. Yes, studies show religious belief is natural. If God belief is our natural predisposition, if ALL people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God, then an Atheistic stance goes against what your natural human inclination is. You must therefore convince yourself that God doesn't exist, indeed delude yourself against deeply held concepts: "Self-delusion is the act of deceiving one's self."

“Belief is natural” does not equal “All people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God”, any more than “red hair is natural” equals “all people have red hair and those who don’t must actively change it’s color.

Kurieuo wrote: Here I'll ask you a question. How do you define your Atheism: 1) Lack of belief in God, or 2) Belief that God doesn't exist? If you answer with Option 1, like many self-identifying Atheists today commonly answer, making such statements like, "God wouldn't even register in your mind except that Theists force their beliefs onto you." Clearly, scientific studies suggest you are deluding yourself since rooted in your human nature are deep seated "religious" concepts.

They both fall under the category of Atheism. If I had never been introduced to religion via outside influence I don’t know how or if I would have precieved it. I believe I mentioned to Pirah people of the Amazon to you in an earlier thread, these people never heard of God and have no concept of God. Atheism seems natural for them. I believe there were some tribes in Africa that were found to be that way as well.

Ken

It is true that the Piraha's have no concept of God ( or past or future for that matter).
They do have their beliefs, the "fast mouths".
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.c ... ure-120213

Excert:

What in the philosophy of the Pirahãs made you abandon your faith? When did that shift happen?

It affected me immediately—going there as a missionary, I thought they needed my message. But they had their own views and were not convinced by anything I said. They would ask me: have I seen Jesus? Then they would say, “So why do you tell us about things that you have never seen?” What struck me was their

PirahãsPirahãs
The Pirahãs hunt, fish and share food; the rest of the time, they laugh, talk and enjoy themselves. (Courtesy Toninho Muricy)
lack of superstition, their contentment with life as they found it. And their happiness. I have never seen people facing so many difficulties, with so much grace: it deeply impressed me. One day, after a few years, one of them told me, “We know why you are here—you want to tell us about Jesus. We like you, but do not want to hear any more about Jesus. We are not Americans.” And I thought, What right do I have to be here, telling them about my beliefs? It made me think about the missionary enterprise in another way; that was in 1980, three years after I arrived. And I got the same response in all the other villages. So I was struggling with my faith.

Because they have their own beliefs?

Yes, there are jungle entities, called fast mouths, who are like humans. Someone will walk in the village at night, and they will say, “Here is a fast mouth.” Those characters look like Pirahãs but talk differently. If you want a Pirahã to believe something, you have to show it to him.


Read more at http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.c ... ure-120213

and from wiki:

According to Everett, the Pirahã have no concept of a supreme spirit or god,[8] and they lost interest in Jesus when they discovered that Everett had never seen him. They require evidence based on personal experience for every claim made.[5] However, they do believe in spirits that can sometimes take on the shape of things in the environment. These spirits can be jaguars, trees, or other visible, tangible things including people.[4](pp112,134–142) Everett reported one incident where the Pirahã said that “Xigagaí, one of the beings that lives above the clouds, was standing on a beach yelling at us, telling us that he would kill us if we go into the jungle.” Everett and his daughter could see nothing and yet the Pirahã insisted that Xigagaí was still on the beach.[4](ppxvi-xvii)

Daniel Everett, a Christian missionary who went to Brazil and dwelt among the Pirahã tribe reports:

"that the Pirahã world is chock-full of spirits, including sky spirits, forest spirits, and evil spirits. Rather than being taken on faith, however, the existence of these incorporeal beings is simply assumed, since nearly everyone in the Pirahã society claims to actually see and interact with these beings." (according to South American society offers insight into spiritual experience)

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Yes, Inspiring Philosophy is Theistic, even Christian, so...??

Edit: Had to double read your words, but what you say isn't entirely true. Yes, studies show religious belief is natural. If God belief is our natural predisposition, if ALL people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God, then an Atheistic stance goes against what your natural human inclination is. You must therefore convince yourself that God doesn't exist, indeed delude yourself against deeply held concepts: "Self-delusion is the act of deceiving one's self."

“Belief is natural” does not equal “All people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God”, any more than “red hair is natural” equals “all people have red hair and those who don’t must actively change it’s color.

1. Humans hold deep convictions of concepts associated with Theism.
2. Kenny is human.
3. Therefore, Kenny holds deep convictions of concepts to do with God.

You may disagree, but I've seen a lot of double talk and know better. I see it all the time. Atheists may resist, may not recognise in their absolute detestation of "god", even as they use lowercase to highlight their disdain for God they don't believe in while using an uppercase for Zeus who is harmless... such may not recognise it, yet I clearly discern it.

And studies suggest, as the author of that video I believe rightly highlights and concludes, that deep within "human nature" is this feeling of something more, "concepts to do with God".

You can walk away in disagreement, but if you have a human nature, than such studies apply to you, others, anyone who is human. Could it be possible that someone exists without? Of course, 100% of people haven't been tested. But the evidence suggests that theistic beliefs are a natural human trait, therefore like psychopaths are considered unnatural or inhuman, so too it would seem there is a corruption to the human nature with the person/people who truly held no convictions of concepts to do with God.

Kurieuo wrote:

Kenny wrote:

Kurieuo wrote: Yes, Inspiring Philosophy is Theistic, even Christian, so...??

Edit: Had to double read your words, but what you say isn't entirely true. Yes, studies show religious belief is natural. If God belief is our natural predisposition, if ALL people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God, then an Atheistic stance goes against what your natural human inclination is. You must therefore convince yourself that God doesn't exist, indeed delude yourself against deeply held concepts: "Self-delusion is the act of deceiving one's self."

“Belief is natural” does not equal “All people hold deep convictions of concepts to do with God”, any more than “red hair is natural” equals “all people have red hair and those who don’t must actively change it’s color.

1. Humans hold deep convictions of concepts associated with Theism.
2. Kenny is human.
3. Therefore, Kenny holds deep convictions of concepts to do with God.

You may disagree, but I've seen a lot of double talk and know better. I see it all the time. Atheists may resist, may not recognise in their absolute detestation of "god", even as they use lowercase to highlight their disdain for God they don't believe in while using an uppercase for Zeus who is harmless... such may not recognise it, yet I clearly discern it.

And studies suggest, as the author of that video I believe rightly highlights and concludes, that deep within "human nature" is this feeling of something more, "concepts to do with God".

You can walk away in disagreement, but if you have a human nature, than such studies apply to you, others, anyone who is human. Could it be possible that someone exists without? Of course, 100% of people haven't been tested. But the evidence suggests that theistic beliefs are a natural human trait, therefore like psychopaths are considered unnatural or inhuman, so too it would seem there is a corruption to the human nature with the person/people who truly held no convictions of concepts to do with God.

Can you present any scientific studies that show it is unnatural for humans to not have any deep convictions of concepts associated with theism? I think not.

Ken

Kenny wrote:...Can you present any scientific studies that show it is unnatural for humans to not have any deep convictions of concepts associated with theism? I think not.

Atheism...

Darwinism...

Marxism...
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B. W. wrote:

Kenny wrote:...Can you present any scientific studies that show it is unnatural for humans to not have any deep convictions of concepts associated with theism? I think not.

Atheism...

Darwinism...

Marxism...
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Those aren't scientific studies, they are just labels theists have given to various people who think differently than them.

Ken