A Beautiful Life - Almost Wasn't

[melanie]

I find it insulting that a regime under your government past and present would ever even suggest some kind of authority under GOD.
The rest of us are more attuned just waiting for you lot to catch up

[Storyteller]

Firstly... Mel, thank you for sharing about your ectopic pregnancy, it's cases like yours that, if anything does, makes me feel that in some situations abortion is justified. It is such a hard topic to address, so many shades of grey, it's hard to define what is right.
Re the Downs Syndrome babies, there is absolutely NO way I, personally, could abort. For me, it starts on the path almost of designer babies. How can you abort your child just because they have Downs? Don't get me wrong, I know how tough life can be for all concerned, living with Downs, but the love and joy for me outweighs that. My cousin has Downs, he is thekindest, gentlest,funniest guy I have ever had thehonour to know.
Ectopic pregnancies are different to me than abortions, evtopic pregnancies can't go full term and guarntee the death of yhe child and severely risk the mothers. Abortion where the baby has absolutely no chance of survival AND endangers the mother are a lot hardr to condemn.
Is it hypocritical to say in extreme cases abortion may be the right decision yet fundamentally disagree with abortion?
I suppose the difference between a baby dying because God didn't intervene and save the baby to abortion is the very fact one is deemed right by God, for whatever reason and one isn't.
I still think you can disagree with the action of abortion but realistically each case has to be taken on it's own merit.

When I had my daughter, they wanted to induce her as I started having contractions early, I refused (and I wasn't a Christian then) because there was a small risk she'd die, if yhey didn't induce her, there was a small risk I would. She was eventually born at 38 weeks, naturally, and is everything I dreamed of and more.
Compare that to a friend of mine, she chose to induce, the baby died and she can now not have children.

I respect any womans decision to have an abortion because it's her right but if it is a simple for or against abortion, I would say I'm against.

[Philip]

Mel, the second article goes through the NT passages relevant to the issue - so, ignore the NT if you wish - but I hope you wouldn't refer to passages taken from God's word as "B.S."

And, the OT passages, including ones like Exodus 21:12 (""He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."), came from God Himself. So, to declare the practice as hideous and unrighteous, is to declare GOD unrighteous. Now, does God CHANGE? Course not. But He has changed His directives to His people, over time, per His intentions and purposes for certain times. So, the question becomes, do the NT directives change the OT ones concerning the death penalty. Does Christ or the Apostles ever change teachings about it? Did they ever condemn it. These should be our guide in the matter. I can understand that this is a highly emotional issue, but we shouldn't use our emotions to gauge the truth of Scripture. But I do have serious concerns about how this is carried out.

Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.

[melanie]

Who is righteous and/or guilty is not the job of an overpaid, over fed magistrate. Irregardless of whether a jury finds a person guilty it is the magistrate that hands down the penalty. In my apparent fickleness I'm not arguing whether they are a mighty fine magistrate, but they probably aren't a religious Christian guru worthy of the task of handing down who lives or dies.
I think God reserves that right!

[melanie]

Mel, the second article goes through the NT passages relevant to the issue - so, ignore the NT if you wish - but I hope you wouldn't refer to passages taken from God's word as "B.S."

And, the OT passages, including ones like Exodus 21:12 (""He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death."), came from God Himself. So, to declare the practice as hideous and unrighteous, is to declare GOD unrighteous. Now, does God CHANGE? Course not. But He has changed His directives to His people, over time, per His intentions and purposes for certain times. So, the question becomes, do the NT directives change the OT ones concerning the death penalty. Does Christ or the Apostles ever change teachings about it? Did they ever condemn it. These should be our guide in the matter. I can understand that this is a highly emotional issue, but we shouldn't use our emotions to gauge the truth of Scripture. But I do have serious concerns about how this is carried out.

Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.

That's my point Philip. We are too flawed and too biased to hand down such a penalty.
I watched a documentary years ago, when DNA testing scientifically became more accurate and they went through thousands of cases to find an alarming amount were innocent. Marjority were black males.
The US is still convicting alleged criminals without DNA evidence to the death penalty.
We are too flawed!!
That's why the job isn't left too us but someone much more qualified.
Justice isn't our domain it's Gods

[Storyteller]

I have a really simplistic view on the death penalty..
We are doing exactly what we are condeming.
Murdering.

I am open to discussion and will willingly concede I'm wrong if I can be shown why.

Philip, in that verse, does God say who he will be put to death by?

This is where I lack in not knowing the Bible well, aren't there verses like "an eye for an eye" but then "turn the other cheek"

Regarding the death penalty, who decides? What if the wrong man is put to death? What about forgiveness? Him who is without sin cast the first stone, etc?

My heart is anti death penalty, anti abortion, anti killing. Convince me I'm wrong.

[melanie]

Firstly... Mel, thank you for sharing about your ectopic pregnancy, it's cases like yours that, if anything does, makes me feel that in some situations abortion is justified. It is such a hard topic to address, so many shades of grey, it's hard to define what is right.
Re the Downs Syndrome babies, there is absolutely NO way I, personally, could abort. For me, it starts on the path almost of designer babies. How can you abort your child just because they have Downs? Don't get me wrong, I know how tough life can be for all concerned, living with Downs, but the love and joy for me outweighs that. My cousin has Downs, he is thekindest, gentlest,funniest guy I have ever had thehonour to know.
Ectopic pregnancies are different to me than abortions, evtopic pregnancies can't go full term and guarntee the death of yhe child and severely risk the mothers. Abortion where the baby has absolutely no chance of survival AND endangers the mother are a lot hardr to condemn.
Is it hypocritical to say in extreme cases abortion may be the right decision yet fundamentally disagree with abortion?
I suppose the difference between a baby dying because God didn't intervene and save the baby to abortion is the very fact one is deemed right by God, for whatever reason and one isn't.
I still think you can disagree with the action of abortion but realistically each case has to be taken on it's own merit.

When I had my daughter, they wanted to induce her as I started having contractions early, I refused (and I wasn't a Christian then) because there was a small risk she'd die, if yhey didn't induce her, there was a small risk I would. She was eventually born at 38 weeks, naturally, and is everything I dreamed of and more.
Compare that to a friend of mine, she chose to induce, the baby died and she can now not have children.

I respect any womans decision to have an abortion because it's her right but if it is a simple for or against abortion, I would say I'm against.

It's a really hard topic Annette and with so much grey as you said.
I don't agree with abortion. Personally I would never have one, without a medical emergency like before. I had one moment somewhat recently with having 4 kids, two biologically mine and my gorgeous twins and I freaked out because I knew within my spirit there would be no question. I would make no other choice, I have no shame in saying thank God it was a false alarm!! But I would never have aborted.
I think it's the wrong choice to abort.
Morally, spiritually and ethically.
But I also think it's morally, spiritually and ethically wrong to turn on women in their most vunerable state and make it a legal issue.
Are we going to jail women for an abortion??
Life for a life??
Throw a 17 year in prison and throw away the key? 20 years? 30?
How on earth do you police it?
Scared and vunerable women will go to back alleys, they will ingest dangerous concoctions, use coat hangers. Fear is powerful, the law will not stop a desperate woman from ending the life inside her but giving her a safe place, without judgment, options and freedom of choice might.
It's a conundrum of the human condition, limit choice and desperation occurs, options is a form of freedom.
Not too mention the enormous work that goes into contraception and prevention.
I have 2 teenagers, my son is 15 and has by all accounts, I'm even quite uncomfortable typing it a serious girlfriend. The only thing he should be serious about is school and his mother!! But apparently not!
We were out the other day and I was carrying grocery bags and asked him to help me, but he told me he couldn't as he was carrying his girlfriend bag!!
Left his mother in the lurch for the sake of his girlfriend I'm still getting over it!
Seriously though I have had some uncomfortable discussions with my son, which has centered around love, dignity, respect and sex.
I told him I trusted him, that I trusted him to be the kind of guy that would take care of her. Know how young they both were, that I trusted him to do the right thing. To respect her, have dignity for her innocence. For his. That sex is sacred.
He told me they had spoken about it and both decided they were way too young but maybe in a couple years!!! But he has access to contraception.
No neon sign, just in the medicine cabinet.
But I trust him, I have raised a good lad.

If you don't want folk ill equiped to have children then educate them!!!

[melanie]

I have a really simplistic view on the death penalty..
We are doing exactly what we are condeming.
Murdering.

I am open to discussion and will willingly concede I'm wrong if I can be shown why.

Philip, in that verse, does God say who he will be put to death by?

This is where I lack in not knowing the Bible well, aren't there verses like "an eye for an eye" but then "turn the other cheek"

Regarding the death penalty, who decides? What if the wrong man is put to death? What about forgiveness? Him who is without sin cast the first stone, etc?

My heart is anti death penalty, anti abortion, anti killing. Convince me I'm wrong.

Annette your heart is gorgeous!
Follow it.
There are really strong arguments for every flip of the coin. An argument won't convict you, what's in your heart will. Trust your instinct, it's okay to do that. More than okay. You shouldn't have to convince yourself of anything, if your soul feels it, it means something.
To you.
It's your feels.
Your spirit.
What you align with matters digly squat in principal if your hearts not there. Just be true to yourself beautiful!
The very best you can be is just you.
In what ever form that takes.
Trust yourself

[Philip]

Story: I am open to discussion and will willingly concede I'm wrong if I can be shown why.

Philip, in that verse, does God say who he will be put to death by?

Annette, READ through the links, which discuss the related Scriptures. The SCRIPTURES speak to the government putting a murderer to death. But an individual is not to apply such justice. Murder is a crime A) against God and B) against a society that REVERES life (or that should). The death of a murderer by the state is a response of justice, which is clear in the OT, and is re-enforced in the NT. And this punishment does not mean God doesn't love the murderer and is unwilling to save one repentant and of faith in Christ. It doesn't mean WE are to hate the murderer either, although we detest his crime. But please read through the links and the Scriptures it references as key. There ARE commands of God that are for a period - even for key people. But there are also mandates for all societies and all times.

[melanie]

What load a shite!!
I back it up with Jesus, I run with Jesus and I end it with Jesus.
I have no need to convict anyone of anything.
ITAlICS don't help or persuasive arguments, I honestly believe that truth is what sets us free. Show me a man worthy of convicting another to death then I might start to be convinced.
All I see is A sinner, judging a sinner and convicting a sinner.
Nothing divine in that process just a bloke having a go.
How ultimately insulting that you believe your repressive. Internationally illegal laws are justified.
Just when I thought Americans were maybe reasonable.

I think I may need to add which I didn't think was necessary but in this post I was referring to the magistrate who convicts the criminal in such matters. At no time was I referring to any individual on this board. I think thus should be obvious but it's always good to be clear.

[RickD]

What load a shite!!
I back it up with Jesus, I run with Jesus and I end it with Jesus.
I have no need to convict anyone of anything.
ITAlICS don't help or persuasive arguments, I honestly believe that truth is what sets us free. Show me a man worthy of convicting another to death then I might start to be convinced.
All I see is A sinner, judging a sinner and convicting a sinner.
Nothing divine in that process just a bloke having a go.
How ultimately insulting that you believe your repressive. Internationally illegal laws are justified.
Just when I thought Americans were maybe reasonable.

Another typical liberal who doesn't pay attention to the facts.
Especially after philip wrote:

Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.

Maybe you want to take back your hypocrisy? Railing against Philip for that, while you wrongly judge him for something he doesn't even hold to.

Good job being a sinner judging a sinner.

Just when I thought liberalism in America was bad.

[melanie]

What load a shite!!
I back it up with Jesus, I run with Jesus and I end it with Jesus.
I have no need to convict anyone of anything.
ITAlICS don't help or persuasive arguments, I honestly believe that truth is what sets us free. Show me a man worthy of convicting another to death then I might start to be convinced.
All I see is A sinner, judging a sinner and convicting a sinner.
Nothing divine in that process just a bloke having a go.
How ultimately insulting that you believe your repressive. Internationally illegal laws are justified.
Just when I thought Americans were maybe reasonable.

Another typical liberal who doesn't pay attention to the facts.
Especially after philip wrote:

Given what I've written and posted on this, one might be surprised to realize that I DO have a problem with the death penalty, at least as it is carried out in the U.S. And that is, it isn't always meted out fairly. There are problems with our system. Rich people often avoid it - not always, but certainly more so. Ultimately, if we can't have key controls and equitable treatment for all, then I would be fine with life sentences for those who commit premeditated murder.

Maybe you want to take back your hypocrisy? Railing against Philip for that, while you wrongly judge him for something he doesn't even hold to.

Good job being a sinner judging a sinner.

Just when I thought liberalism in America was bad.

Ohh really Rick
Thankyou for labelling me a liberal I get it the US standards
When you know better you do better
My response to Philip

That's my point Philip. We are too flawed and too biased to hand down such a penalty.
I watched a documentary years ago, when DNA testing scientifically became more accurate and they went through thousands of cases to find an alarming amount were innocent. Marjority were black males.
The US is still convicting alleged criminals without DNA evidence to the death penalty.
We are too flawed!!
That's why the job isn't left too us but someone much more qualified.
Justice isn't our domain it's Gods

I got it Rick, thanks mate
Not a liberal is that what I am against a what?? Just a couple of people having a conversation carrying on with your sensationlism

[Philip]

I would say Mel's problem is not with my beliefs, but with Scripture. Same God in both Testaments. Jesus confirmed the OT. Same God's commands about capital punishment. Same God's apostles affirming it. None of them or Jesus speak against it (actually, the opposite) - and a common practice of their day. So, rather than just emotionally blathering on about something being a bunch of "sh*t," I'd like to see a thoughtful response to the analysis and of the indicated Scriptures. Did God or did He not inspire them? If they spoke against capital punishment, I would totally be against it. There are lots of things in Scripture I am uncomfortable with. The things and people Jesus eternally condemns is quite a lengthy list. I don't like the doctrine of hell, unending punishment, etc. Hate it, actually. But I don't and can't God's standard's of justice only to things I'm entirely comfortable with.

[melanie]

Of course Philip.
As long as your long list of scripture lines up with your conviction right?
Cos Jesus just said
Insert said belief......
Carry on chap
Very well
my problem isn't with scripture it's with your beliefs.
No confusion here
Not because I'm a blubbering fool, nice try I'll give you that, the quickest way to silence an naysayer is through ridicule but I guess I was mistaken in thinking you had a little more character than that.
I don't have to convince anyone of anything,
I just encourage people to have thoughtful insight and a mind to seek.
Bless

[melanie]

I have been on this board for nearly 4 years, and I have seen first hand and countless times the 'close' ranks bully mentality, I have walked friends through it. Who have left, feeling intimated and disillusioned on here.
I'm not one of them
I am a Christian
But my beliefs do not align with the mainstream on here. How wonderful! What an eclectic bunch of important individuals
Who wants a forum that's an echo chamber, spirituality is rife with different convictions, ideals and Ideas.
Difference is growth
It means something, probably not to 99% and that's okay. Be authentically yourself and let others be also.
I won't be bullied,
I am not mainstream, im not going to pretend like I am.
This is me
Like it or ban me.
That sounds very controversial, but I know how these peeps work.
I'm already there.
And in the words of Philip clearly the level I have to articulate is...
I don't give a 'sh*t'
Sounds pretty magical to me