Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote:

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Ok, perhaps there's a chance I'm missing something. How is murdering innocent humans a solution and a necessity?

OK but before we go forward It seems I am missing something too. Are you agreeing with me that killing innocent people like nuking Japan was unjustified?
From your wording I wanted to clarify.

It might be shocking to you but if you are fighting in a war and if you are upholding the laws of the land you can kill in war and it is not murder in God's eyes.However abortion is murder in the eyes of God.Murder is very different from killing and there is a difference you're overlooking.Justice is of God.Murder is a sin,killing is not in order to uphold the laws of the land.It was NOT murder in God's eyes when David took a stone in his sling and hit Goliath in his head and killed him and chopped off his head.However it was murder in the eyes of God when David had the guy who's wife he was sleeping with killed.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:

RickD wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Ok, perhaps there's a chance I'm missing something. How is murdering innocent humans a solution and a necessity?

OK but before we go forward It seems I am missing something too. Are you agreeing with me that killing innocent people like nuking Japan was unjustified?
From your wording I wanted to clarify.

It might be shocking to you but if you are fighting in a war and if you are upholding the laws of the land you can kill in war and it is not murder in God's eyes.However abortion is murder in the eyes of God.Murder is very different from killing and there is a difference you're overlooking.Justice is of God.Murder is a sin,killing is not in order to uphold the laws of the land.It was NOT murder in God's eyes when David took a stone in his sling and hit Goliath in his head and killed him and chopped off his head.However it was murder in the eyes of God when David had the guy who's wife he was sleeping with killed.

Killing enemy combatants in war is one thing, but directly targeting civilians including women and children is another. I think Neo's point, if I understand him correctly, is that the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki targeted civilians.

Rick: Killing enemy combatants in war is one thing, but directly targeting civilians including women and children is another. I think Neo's point, if I understand him correctly, is that the bombs at Hiroshima and Nagasaki targeted civilians.

Before we get too off track on the atom bombs dropping, I started a thread to specifically discuss those events:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 57#p233957

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

A human being is a person... not a problem

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Would it not be more moral to prevent the pregnancies in the first place rather than murdering the babies?
Just because something is decreed by the government doesnt make it right.
Your comment that sometimes "it is just a necessity" insinuates that human life is disposable, not important, of no worth.
There may be no choice regarding abortion but there is choice as to whether a child is conceived.

Storyteller wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Would it not be more moral to prevent the pregnancies in the first place rather than murdering the babies?
Just because something is decreed by the government doesnt make it right.
Your comment that sometimes "it is just a necessity" insinuates that human life is disposable, not important, of no worth.
There may be no choice regarding abortion but there is choice as to whether a child is conceived.

If I understand correctly, Pakistan has very restrictive abortion laws. So saying abortion is a necessity in Pakistan, is just wrong. India and China seem pretty liberal with abortion laws.

Still not sure how killing babies is a solution or a necessity though. If we're talking about overpopulation being the problem, surely there are better options than killing babies.

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Would it not be more moral to prevent the pregnancies in the first place rather than murdering the babies?
Just because something is decreed by the government doesnt make it right.
Your comment that sometimes "it is just a necessity" insinuates that human life is disposable, not important, of no worth.
There may be no choice regarding abortion but there is choice as to whether a child is conceived.

If I understand correctly, Pakistan has very restrictive abortion laws. So saying abortion is a necessity in Pakistan, is just wrong. India and China seem pretty liberal with abortion laws.

Still not sure how killing babies is a solution or a necessity though. If we're talking about overpopulation being the problem, surely there are better options than killing babies.

Yea, but society often times don''t like abstinence. More so nowadays.

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:

RickD wrote:

Storyteller wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

Would it not be more moral to prevent the pregnancies in the first place rather than murdering the babies?
Just because something is decreed by the government doesnt make it right.
Your comment that sometimes "it is just a necessity" insinuates that human life is disposable, not important, of no worth.
There may be no choice regarding abortion but there is choice as to whether a child is conceived.

If I understand correctly, Pakistan has very restrictive abortion laws. So saying abortion is a necessity in Pakistan, is just wrong. India and China seem pretty liberal with abortion laws.

Still not sure how killing babies is a solution or a necessity though. If we're talking about overpopulation being the problem, surely there are better options than killing babies.

Yea, but society often times don''t like abstinence. More so nowadays.

I know... They prefer murder.

Abstinence is hard, Kid - find a good Christian woman early in life and stay married to her!

Kurieuo wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Abortion results in killing an innocent human life. People mightn't like that fact, feel inconvenienced by that fact, laws might say it's fine for women to go see someone who can kill and remove a 24 week baby in the womb, but given biologically such represents a human life and secondly such has done nothing wrong which morally justifies a death sentence, then such for me fits what I understand murder to be.

I have never considered abortion to be murder and I think it's just going too far with the idea. While I generally don't like the idea of abortion - because it is a waste of potential life - I think there are times when abortion works as a solution.

It isn't just waste of potential life, but rather waste of actual life. I think, if that clicked with you really, that a baby inutero was as real a human life as a baby born, that you'd not consider such evil a viable solution. For example, I'm assuming you wouldn't consider infanticide a viable solution to whatever issue you believe is the problem.

To speak more directly to the problem you have seen, as I understand, firsthand in your own country re: poverty, homeless women, outcast, uneducated, who struggle getting their own food let alone trying to nurture children. Some might say that a viable solution would be simply irradicating such poor people, people who are largely forgotten and ignored by society at large anyway. Many don't seem that smart, they don't contribute really to society, we might even say they appear less than human, bottom feeders, the dirt of society. If they died, they'd have noone cry for them... so how exactly are they valuable? Why should we care?

I don't really think that way, rather I'm just pressing the logic that taking any human life should ever be considered a viable solution. Regardless of what people say about what consider right and good so they don't like horrible people in front others, I know that many out there really don't give a damn. Many at the bottom end of society are considered as having no value, undeserving of human dignity. Many even delight in kicking someone who is down and out, or even kicking someone down further, as such makes them feel superior. That is wrong. It is a sad situation, and I'm glad I follow a Lord who considered such the most precious to reach out to: the weak, the poor and downtrodden. Jesus would never lower the bar to accept as a solution evil to help alleviate a greater evil, neither should we.

I know other people have responded to you since, but I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on the above. In particular, after reading what I wrote, reflecting upon the part of my words underlined above. That is, if you truly believed a baby inutero was just like an infant born (equal in their nature and being), whether such would change your opinion on whether abortion is infact a viable part of a solution to the problem of something like extreme poverty?

Everyone, let me list down my thoughts here:

1. I don't like abortion, I have said that already.
2. I don't think this issue is black and white. I have noticed that some of the responses are quite passionate but I consider that passion and nothing else. Sounds good on paper. In reality, it doesn't help.
3. I am not saying that the baby in the womb is not human, of course, it's human. What else will it be?
4. In third world countries, most people are not educated. They are not aware of most preventive measures. They literally don't know. Generally, people don't like Abortion, not even in Pakistan. But you won't find anyone setting fire to abortion clinics. The govt doesn't stop anyone or encourages anyone to have an abortion. We have other bigger problems.

You think people make informed decisions when having abortions? No. They are worried how they would feed another mouth. There is no childcare, no govt help no welfare system. And most of the time, when people don't abort they send sell their children to rich lords so the baby can grow to be a servant in the house, will be fed and in turn made to work like an animal all day long. Child labor is rampant. Ever wear your Nike's or Addidas'? they are usually made in a third world country by children.
If not that, the extra child will just earn for the family as soon as it is 5-6 years old. The children usually are beaten, abused, molested, mistreated, sold to be sex slaves if not servants.
Our countries are overpopulated, we don't produce enough so that everyone can eat and have a bare minimum life.

5. The reason I said it's not murder is that it technically just isn't. If you have a justification to kill/end life if you consider the pros and cons, and I am using the same yardstick here Rick, the one you referred to about the Nuking post. That if you take all factors in, it just seems to me that, yes it is also justifiable to have an abortion.

Rick, Thank you for your candid thoughts. I was a bit surprised that you didn't spot the irony in what you said. You initially called me out in the inconsistency that I held nuking Japan, unjustified but not abortion and I believe your argument is that nuking Japan can be justified but abortion can't be. Do you see that abortion can too be justified, the same as the nuking? We're basically saying the same thing. You hold the nuking, justified and not abortion and me Vice versa. If there is an inconsistency then it is in both of our arguments. Or else you can agree with me that they are two very different issues.

If someone's point is not covered, let me know and I will respond accordingly. I made one post as there are too many replies to answer.

K, I hope I answered yours as well.

And, I have never seen anyone happy by having an abortion. I think calling someone a murderer for having an abortion is silly. Perhaps there are some exceptions to it. However, You don't know everyones circumstance. I don't think we can label everyone with the same brush.

Anyway, principally I can see the novelty in your argument and passion and I admire it. It just isn't viable or pragmatic. The resulting consequences are too worse. We don’t even need any country to invade and destroy us. Our rising populations will do that on their own. The poverty, the unemployment, the crime rate, the food shorttage, lack of water, etc. While abortion is not a solution to all that is wrong, it is a preventive method that helps not make the situation worse.

So, I think there are scenarios where abortion can be justified.

Nessa wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Nessa wrote:abortion works for a solution? You say that like a solution couldnt possibly be evil.

A solution is of course to a problem. Consider china, India # Pakistan. Some of the most popultlated countries in the world. In some places abortion is not a choice - choice like it is in the west. Sometimes it is just necessity.

A human being is a person... not a problem

Would you have preferred Hitlers mother had aborted him?
Sometimes human being are problems and there are plenty of exceptions to your statement. I know you mean well by what you said. But at least acknowledge it isn't that simple.

neo-x wrote:Everyone, let me list down my thoughts here:

1. I don't like abortion, I have said that already.
2. I don't think this issue is black and white. I have noticed that some of the responses are quite passionate but I consider that passion and nothing else. Sounds good on paper. In reality, it doesn't help.
3. I am not saying that the baby in the womb is not human, of course, it's human. What else will it be?
4. In third world countries, most people are not educated. They are not aware of most preventive measures. They literally don't know. Generally, people don't like Abortion, not even in Pakistan. But you won't find anyone setting fire to abortion clinics. The govt doesn't stop anyone or encourages anyone to have an abortion. We have other bigger problems.

You think people make informed decisions when having abortions? No. They are worried how they would feed another mouth. There is no childcare, no govt help no welfare system. And most of the time, when people don't abort they send sell their children to rich lords so the baby can grow to be a servant in the house, will be fed and in turn made to work like an animal all day long. Child labor is rampant. Ever wear your Nike's or Addidas'? they are usually made in a third world country by children.
If not that, the extra child will just earn for the family as soon as it is 5-6 years old. The children usually are beaten, abused, molested, mistreated, sold to be sex slaves if not servants.
Our countries are overpopulated, we don't produce enough so that everyone can eat and have a bare minimum life.

5. The reason I said it's not murder is that it technically just isn't. If you have a justification to kill/end life if you consider the pros and cons, and I am using the same yardstick here Rick, the one you referred to about the Nuking post. That if you take all factors in, it just seems to me that, yes it is also justifiable to have an abortion.

Rick, Thank you for your candid thoughts. I was a bit surprised that you didn't spot the irony in what you said. You initially called me out in the inconsistency that I held nuking Japan, unjustified but not abortion and I believe your argument is that nuking Japan can be justified but abortion can't be. Do you see that abortion can too be justified, the same as the nuking? We're basically saying the same thing. You hold the nuking, justified and not abortion and me Vice versa. If there is an inconsistency then it is in both of our arguments. Or else you can agree with me that they are two very different issues.

If someone's point is not covered, let me know and I will respond accordingly. I made one post as there are too many replies to answer.

K, I hope I answered yours as well.

Not really, but replace "abortion" with "infanticide" and then let me know if you still think the same on all counts.

Why should we replace it with infanticide?