What is His name?

[Philip]

Mel: I think that for many Christian’s their biggest downfall is being too concerned with who’s on the guest list that they forget Jesus was sacrificed for those he was willing to have seated on His.

While I certainly agree this is true for many people. But the fact is, it is JESUS who asserted that faith in Himself to be the exclusive and ONLY way to salvation. So, I believe this because Jesus and His apostles prolifically taught it! Jesus made comments like:

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

"UNLESS you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father EXCEPT through me."

“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

"And He (The Father) has given Him (the Son) authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man."

And so, the Son will execute judgment upon unbelievers:

"The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day."

So, for everyone we know who is unsaved, our goal should be to bring them knowledge of the Gospel. Of course, in the West, most know OF Jesus and the Gospel, but often not their specifics. Because JESUS said He is the only way to salvation - it doesn't matter what any of us think about the matter.

And so all this brings up the question of those who do not know of Jesus, the Gospel, and His teachings. And I believe - as K has mentioned - that God is neither limited in His ability nor how He reaches people with essential knowledge about Jesus - whether through visions, dreams, sending someone, connecting them via the internet, radio, tv - God knows where and who everyone is that don't yet know about Jesus, and He also perfectly knows everyone who has an open heart and mind. He knows precisely how He can bring them understanding about Jesus. He also foresees not only how He will do it, but that it WILL be successful. Absence of knowing about Jesus does not limit a person from being reached by God (explored more in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41850&p=223171&hili ... el#p223171)

[melanie]

Who doesn’t want to be special?! To be part of an exclusive group. Jeez you put the hard yakka in as a believer if there wasn’t a payoff why bother?
Right? We believe, honestly and sincerely and we’re saved.
That’s scripture .....nothing at all to do with putting in the work and wanting the rewards.
Really as a Christian for all our lives, half of our lives, part of our lives we humbly ask for salvation and through NO deed from ourselves we are saved by faith.
Maybe... because let’s not even begin to talk about ‘unbelievers’, how many believers are actually believing right??
So whilst salvation is free and we don’t earn it because God is really pretty awesome like that, it just takes faith perfection not needed.
But.......you kinda wanna believe in the ‘true’ version of Christianity otherwise your not really saved anyway.
But it’s okay because the laws not important and you can be a bit of a prick as long as you believe!!
Confused??
Ohh it’s not confusing, just wait till we talk about the nature of God and the exact manner in which you must view Him.
That’s a biggie, truly believe that or no cigar.....literally. Regardless of where you fall on the issue, you just better believe it.

None of it matters.
The creator of the universe, a being more divine and splendid than anything our language can attempt to articulate doesn’t care.
You can be the best reciter of scripture but if you don’t give a hoot about the broken and the meek. The addicts and the bums then it’s lip. If you can’t look around at our fellow man and see them as worthy even in their despair and utter contempt for anything good then it’s pride. Every single person is born in the image of Christ. We are all image bearers of the Almighty. All equal and all worthy under Jesus.
Treating people with dignity, compassion and respect is the language of salvation. The rod we use will be used agaisnt us and Jesus says the meek will inherit the kingdom. He who is first will be last and last first.
I think the table that Jesus invites this time round will be just as controversial and surprising as the first.

[Philip]

Melanie: But.......you kinda wanna believe in the ‘true’ version of Christianity otherwise your not really saved anyway.

Then why did Jesus say this to be the truth? Did He lie? Did He not ever say these things? Were the apostles ALL confused about this as well? And if knowing about Jesus and embracing Him in faith isn't ultimately crucial - then why the Great Commission? Why it's urgency? Why have missionaries risked their lives - and often losing them - to spread the Gospel - IF knowledge and acceptance of it isn't critical???

Do you believe what the Apostle Paul is asking in Romans 10:13-15?

Because, to believe what Mel does - apparently, that knowing about and having faith in Jesus isn't necessary for salvation - she must not believe what so many Scriptures agree upon? So, are they just wrong? Mistaken? What? Upon what basis do you disbelieve what Jesus and the Apostles clearly state, over and over?

Let's not forget that it is God who distributes people in time and place. He knows who will listen and be receptive to the Gospel. And He knows precisely how He will reach each. But He also knows who will never receive Him - no matter how much knowledge they have. In fact, Jesus condemned many who actually met him, heard him speak, saw his miracles. So, BEFORE anyone was born, God has always known how He would distribute them in time and place, so as to save the maximum number of people - all who will not permanently resist Him.

BTW, Mel - I do see your heart in why you insist this - I know how much you care about people - I'm sure many of us here (including myself) could learn a lot from you about loving people, showing them compassion, etc.

[mrtzur2015]

How do I "call on the name of the Lord" (Romans 10:13) ? What is His name?

his name.. acording to the ancient poly hebrew is Yeosha which is a short for Yehuvah - Oshia - The lord saves.
i believe names are irrelevent for this it is your heart that will decide if you calling on him or not.
if you really seek knock and ask it will be opened for you.

[melanie]

Phil I don’t think Jesus is unnecessary for salvation at all. I believe just like you that it was and is His sacrifice on the cross that redeemed an unfit and unworthy ‘congregation’ then and now.
We don’t disagree on that part, where we may start to differ is on how far reaching God’s compassion and forgiveness flows.
Jesus many times gave examples of non believers who stood before God in redemption like The Good Samaritan (by parable), the Tax Collector and the thief on the cross. Jesus was mocked, ridiculed and hung for His compassion and forgiveness. It was revolutionary and drastic. It went against the status quo because He unapologetically invited, loved and welcomed those that were thought to be outside of Religious acceptanceny into His circle. He didn’t give a hoot about what was acceptable but what was just and right. Drunkards, thieves and prostitutes were amoung His own. As we all are.
It’s splitting hairs to examine exhaustively the nature of what a individuals realisation may amount too, the manner and the timing in regards to whether they are ‘saved’. Like our acknowledgment may alter their fate.
We are not asked to save others Jesus’ has that covered but rather to shine the light on His sacrifice and redemption made possible on the Cross for all mankind.

[abelcainsbrother]

It's so hard talking to Christians who believe we're forgiven and saved by grace through faith in Christ AND [add in some works]. Such Christians might say something like, "we're forgiven and saved when we ask Christ to forgives us our sin, come into our lives, repent of our sins to stop sinning." These Christians are normally the ones concerned about the sin in other Christians. It seems to me that many who judge other Christians and preach these works-based theologies may end up having a scandel of their own revealed. So sad, they're set free in Christ yet feel so trapped by their own sin that they take it out on other Christians they're meant to be correctly teaching.

I don't promote a Faith+Works gospel anymore than Christ did through the account of the woman caught in adultery. ( John 8:1-11 )

10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

The KJV translates it as "...go and sin no more." Either way the wording promotes righteous living, an action...an action that very interestingly comes AFTER Christ declares that He does not condemn her!! That is it right there. Christ has declared to her that there is no condemnation from Him on her, and yet He tells her to "...leave your life of sin."

There are many Christians trapped by a works-based theology. Such feel uncomfortable with just letting Christians naturally grow in righteousness via the work of the Holy Spirit, because they say there might be some who come to Christ and just willy-nilly going about their lives sinning and doing whatever they want. To which I reply, so bloody what, that's between that person and God? You've no doubt got your own logs to deal with. Such Christians may temporarily forget their own sinful desires of their flesh, perhaps take pride in momentarily conquering this or that sin in their life.

I grant you that people are trapped in a works-based theology. That doesn't make seeing the Law ( the 10 ) as still law a "works-based theology". Clearly neither does Christ or the Holy Spirit. If the law is powerless to save ( Romans 8:3 ), Christ comes to condemn SIN. The words are clear. Christ doesn't condemn the law...the law is holy, righteous and good ( Romans 7:12 ) , but condemns SIN...and then the kicker... ( Romans 8:4 )

...in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [...] The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

The requirements of the Law are righteous! It doesn't say the requirements of the Law except the Sabbath are righteous! The bible says, ALL the law and prophets is summed up in LOVE. ( Matthew 22:37-40 , Galatians 5:14 , Romans 13:8-10 )

"Yes, it is by grace through faith in Christ, BUT you must also repent and stop sinning," they say. Then they go about backloading works into salvation and into the good news Christ brought. This is still a works-based theology AND worst yet, it pulls the rug out of the Gospel post-acceptance, the good news which says it is by Christ and Christ alone we are saved and not of our own doing. No one can boast about their Christianity, or how good of a Christian they are, only of the work God has wrought through us.

Whoever says that is dumb because while we can repent, we can't stop sinning. But the direction is no less the same direction Christ pointed the woman caught in adultery ( Commandment 7 ) and declared He didn't condemn her so "go and sin no more." You have to admit, adultery is a rather simple commandment to keep in action, maybe not in heart...hence repentance and leaning on God to change us.

Are we a willing vessel that Christ can use, or aren't we? That is the main question for Christians post-accepting Christ. And often, it does take work on our part to change, to master our sinful bodies, to reach out to others and try to love them as Christ loves us, yet it is God who is steering us through life and placing things in our path that really test and refine us. There is zero soteriological merit to such however, that is, it makes no difference to one's standing with God and being saved what one DOES if their faith was truly in Christ.

Agreed. So to actively shove aside God's law because "you are no longer under the law" is to completely misinterpret what it means to be UNDER the law. If the law has righteous requirements, then to be ON TOP of the law is to be righteous and to be UNDER the law is to be found guilty of one sin, therefore guilty of them all. Again, we are redeemed from the CURSE of the law or redeemed from being UNDER the law...same thing. ( Galatians 3:13 )

People who think they can come to Christ by merely following some formula -- e.g., ask Christ for forgiveness, say the sinners prayer, repent (by which many mean to either "turn from their sin" i.e., stop sinning) -- AREN'T saved. Such could be just carrying out a process that has no real significance. Testing to see if they feel changed, like trying on a new set of clothes. The Israelites and many Jews today still try to follow a process, but their prophet Jeremiah warned that one day God would punish those who are only circumcised in the flesh. (Jer 9:25)

Again, we agree. But that process also includes being lead by the Spirit and NOT the flesh...which is hostile to God's law. We just read this in Romans 8:1-11 that the law IS righteous requirements. Again, not that we must attain righteousness through the law, we already know the law is powerless to do this, but rather we live according to the Spirit...who does live by or on top of the law, so to speak, the Spirit is not UNDER the law. The Spirit is not guilty of any of the Law that He would be UNDER the law.

What is important isn't the process, isn't our sinful bodies which continue sinning,

...and how do you know what sin is?

...
noone needs to tell a real Christian to also turn from sin. For all who are circumcised deeper down in their hearts will quite naturally wish they were different. Rather what matters is their true desire and change (a "circumcision of the heart" as Scripture describes). Read these passages: Deut 10:16; Deut 30:6; Jer 4:4; Jer 9:25; Acts 7:51; Phil 3:3; Col 2:11.

I don't have anything against the above except to say that you say one thing from one side of your mouth and then something contrary from the other. You say, "...their true desire to change." Change from what and to what? It is plainly laid out in scripture in the above texts...and those aren't the only ones.

So then what matters when we come to Christ is that such is a heart-based response. We know inside ourselves we are sinners and really do need Christ, and we desire Him!

How do we know we are sinners? What have we done that makes us sinners? Is there some list that exists that shows us what sin is? You're saying all the right words, but you're not having the desire to change. You're willing to change everything, BUT acknowledge God's righteous law.

The other things should follow more naturally, believing in Christ, asking God for forgiveness, such things are just a natural outcome of a circumcised heart (which mind you we also have a lot to thank God for when we come to this point of "circumcision" in our lives). Wanting to change and be more like Christ is also just something more natural for us even if we still struggle with being such.

And wouldn't you say that if the requirements of the law are righteous, then Christ is righteous? So we know what sin is. It is everything in the law that points to, makes us aware of, makes us conscious of sin. ( Romans 3:20 , Romans 7:7 ) The law is spiritual ( Romans 7:14 ), My inner being delights in God's law ( Romans 7:22)

God promises to be faithful to us in shaping and moulding us -- the Holy Spirit does this to us in life, tests us, refines us. God helps us to circumcise our flesh and bodies in ways neither the Jews or we ourselves could achieve alone. This continues until the day we die when we are truly free from our bodies of sin. That Christian person who is set free at death, never sinned (Bav you listening), but rather it was sin in weakness of flesh that Paul describes doing that which we do not want to do (Romans 7:14-25). When our bodies are shed, so too the weakness of our flesh and sinfulness is shed. We are finally set free and able to be our true selves in Christ. As Paul says (Bav, again you listening), "It is not I who do wrong, but sin that dwells within me." (Romans 7:17) There is no such thing as a Christian sinner who has truly had a circumcision of the heart in Christ, and thus the resulting belief in Christ which follows.

You're reading this all completely in the wrong context. It is ME, YOU, Paul that are in the flesh. It IS us that sin. We are sinners. If anyone claims not to be a sinner, they are a liar. ( 1 John 1:10 )

The end of Romans 7 is OH so clear.

Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful natured a slave to the law of sin.

This explains Romans 7 and the 'wretched man' that is a slave to the law of sin, but wants to be a slave to God's law...which is righteousness...it's holy, and good. God delivers us from that wretched person enslaved by the law of sin...which the law makes us conscious, makes us aware of.
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The problem with your faith+ works ideas is that Christ had not yet died on the cross paying for our salvation in full and before he did so,they were still under the law,which is why he told her go and sin no more. But now Christ fulfilled his work for us fulfilling the law for us because we cannot do it. And the problem with you advocating part of the law like the sabbath is that you cannot just pick and choose which laws you like,like the sabbath law for instance. I think SDA's do this because of how important the sabbath is to them,but once you start going back to the law you must keep all of it,this is why it is silly to even try to keep any of the law. For instance jews cannot keep the law even if they tried to today because they have no temple or ark of the covenant and yet God has not changed and still requires a blood covenant and blood sacrifice for the remission of sins,which is what salvation through Jesus is. Jesus already did for us and he takes up the slack for us. It is amazing grace that we don't deserve,yet we are in the age of grace until the tribulation period and the judgments of God are poured out. I'll rely on my faith in Jesus and what he did,instead of the good things I can muster up to do because I must do this being a filthy sinner compared to Jesus.

Ephesians. For you.
https://youtu.be/SmNyopqN3tk

But another problem with your faith+works theology is that all false religions teach works for salvation and this is a big reason why Christianity is the only unique religion out there and I would also say the true one because of this and yet once you start adding works to faith you start turning Christianity into a false religion or at the very least you blur the differences between Christianity and all other false religions and turn the gospel which is good news to bad news just like with all false religions that give you bad news because you must change yourself to follow the laws,rituals,rules,etc of that religion your whole life to the best of your ability. I don't know if you have researched other religions and compared them to Christianity but I have and because of it I can tell you that if the religion you are in teaches works for salvation,justification,better karma in your next life,etc it is a false religion and yet here you are kinda doing that adding works to faith just because your denomination focuses more on the sabbath.

Also - Patients. For you.
https://youtu.be/SE9sPvam02w

[BavarianWheels]

The problem with your faith+ works ideas is [...]

But another problem with your faith+works theology is that [...]

Well here's the problem with your assessment of what was said. It's not a faith+works idea or theology.

It's a faith-THAT-works theology.

James 2:14-26

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless ? 21Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

...the very idea/theology mentioned plainly in scripture.
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[PaulSacramento]

I don't know if OSAS is correct.
That would mean that people's ability to choose God is a "one time" thing ( once you believe you can never stop believing).
That angels are inferior to humans ( some fell away).
I am sure that not everyone believes the same way or to the same degree.
I have never been a fan of the term "true believer" since everyone things they are one, even those that "fall away' and become atheists ( it is argued that they were never true believers).

I don't see why God would eliminate free will, the ability to choose NOT to love Him, from a person just because they Love Him at any given point.

[RickD]

I don't know if OSAS is correct.
That would mean that people's ability to choose God is a "one time" thing ( once you believe you can never stop believing).
That angels are inferior to humans ( some fell away).
I am sure that not everyone believes the same way or to the same degree.
I have never been a fan of the term "true believer" since everyone things they are one, even those that "fall away' and become atheists ( it is argued that they were never true believers).

I don't see why God would eliminate free will, the ability to choose NOT to love Him, from a person just because they Love Him at any given point.

That's not an accurate representation of OSAS. In osas, one can turn his back on God, and stop believing. But once one is a new creation in Christ, God will never turn His back on us.

Unbelief is a sin. Saying that we lose salvation if we stop believing, is the same as saying we lose salvation because of sin.

[PaulSacramento]

I don't know if OSAS is correct.
That would mean that people's ability to choose God is a "one time" thing ( once you believe you can never stop believing).
That angels are inferior to humans ( some fell away).
I am sure that not everyone believes the same way or to the same degree.
I have never been a fan of the term "true believer" since everyone things they are one, even those that "fall away' and become atheists ( it is argued that they were never true believers).

I don't see why God would eliminate free will, the ability to choose NOT to love Him, from a person just because they Love Him at any given point.

That's not an accurate representation of OSAS. In osas, one can turn his back on God, and stop believing. But once one is a new creation in Christ, God will never turn His back on us.

Unbelief is a sin. Saying that we lose salvation if we stop believing, is the same as saying we lose salvation because of sin.

Ah, so, regardless of what a person believes or even if they try to turn others from God, the moment that at even just ONE POINT in their life they did believe in God, God will save them from judgment?

[RickD]

I don't know if OSAS is correct.
That would mean that people's ability to choose God is a "one time" thing ( once you believe you can never stop believing).
That angels are inferior to humans ( some fell away).
I am sure that not everyone believes the same way or to the same degree.
I have never been a fan of the term "true believer" since everyone things they are one, even those that "fall away' and become atheists ( it is argued that they were never true believers).

I don't see why God would eliminate free will, the ability to choose NOT to love Him, from a person just because they Love Him at any given point.

That's not an accurate representation of OSAS. In osas, one can turn his back on God, and stop believing. But once one is a new creation in Christ, God will never turn His back on us.

Unbelief is a sin. Saying that we lose salvation if we stop believing, is the same as saying we lose salvation because of sin.

Ah, so, regardless of what a person believes or even if they try to turn others from God, the moment that at even just ONE POINT in their life they did believe in God, God will save them from judgment?

Paul,

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about a belief in God, as in "I believe God exists". I'm talking about belief in Christ. To believe, as in John 3:16 believe. The word for believe is pisteuō. That kind of believing is more like trust. Or, to place one's confidence in. In other words, believe/trust in Christ, what He did so that we may be saved.

And once one trusts in Christ, one becomes a new creation, passing from death, to life.

[Philip]

The important questions related to whether one can lose their saved status, are:

- WHEN does ETERNAL life begin?

- Can ETERNAL life ever be less than forever?

- Who begins, sustains and completes salvation?

- Does anyone believe they could have believed without God's help? Can sustain their faith without God's help?

- God wishes to save a person - is that dependent upon a sinful mains ability to come to fruition? Because if it does, this means that God wants certain things (for people not permanently resistant to His drawing them to place their faith in him AND for them to be with Him forever), and yet that His ability to save is somehow dependent upon man.

- Does God make mistakes in who He saves? Does He not foresee our entire lives with perfect clarity? Does He not see the great power of HIS faithfulness that makes our salvation forever? Does He not also foresee the futures of those He saves in Heaven? Does God save a person while foreseeing that they would only eventually reject Him - does that make ANY sense?

- The Holy Spirit, inhabiting every believer the moment they place their faith in Jesus - does He exit them?

- Paul and John both write of having confidence in one's salvation, with Paul asserting the One who starts one's faith, also completes it. HOW is this possible for Paul to believe?

- Note 1 John 2:19-20 - not indicated as being written to any but to all believers - it's all about those opposing Christ who once appeared to have faith and be saved:

19 They went out from us, but they WERE not of us; for if they HAD BEEN of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.

John is saying that those truly saved WILL continue in the faith, and that those walking away from Christ that previously manifested mere appearances of faith were not true believers and thus were never saved to begin with.

And verse 24 contrasts the people who first seemed to be saved with those who actually ARE:

If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too WILL abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us[e]—eternal life.

John uses the present-tense verb "ABIDES" to assert (as does the Apostle Paul) ALL those believing NOW (present tense) WILL abide in the Son and Father. And then John puts the exclamation point on what this means - "the PROMISE that He made to us of ETERNAL life."

- How could God PROMISE anyone ETERNAL life that turns out to only be temporary? Do people not realize that ETERNAL LIFE begins NOW and is a FOREVER state from the moment of faith? To assert otherwise contradicts lots of Scripture!

[BavarianWheels]

I don't know if OSAS is correct.
That would mean that people's ability to choose God is a "one time" thing ( once you believe you can never stop believing).
That angels are inferior to humans ( some fell away).
I am sure that not everyone believes the same way or to the same degree.
I have never been a fan of the term "true believer" since everyone things they are one, even those that "fall away' and become atheists ( it is argued that they were never true believers).

I don't see why God would eliminate free will, the ability to choose NOT to love Him, from a person just because they Love Him at any given point.

I lean with you ( I'm sure that doesn't necessarily make you happy ) on this. To believe in OSAS is to believe God removes our ability to choose. While the choice to act out a sin isn't an act that can keep us from salvation, the act of rejecting the HS is. Who's to say that a true believer cannot change his/her mind?

Is it impossible for the 'true believer' to blaspheme the HS? See Mark 3:28,29 There is a sin that is no covered by Jesus' blood. It's an eternal sin...

OSAS is a dangerous teaching if it is not taught or placed in its proper context.
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[Philip]

Bav: I lean with you ( I'm sure that doesn't necessarily make you happy ) on this.

Why would what anyone agreeing with or without me on ANY subject make me happy or sad? I'm not impacted by people agreeing or disagreeing with me. The rightness or wrongness of my views of Scriptural issues have nothing to do with what other people think, nor of who holds whatever view.

[BavarianWheels]

NO - it merely means I know what "SAVED" actually means - it's ETERNAL life! Notice that I didn't say people who know all the words, believe all the history surrounding Jesus, externally show signs of being a believer, are Christians - as some may not be. So, people are fooled by the external, not realizing when people have not truly been saved, so that when people turn away, it is NOT the case that they had previously been saved.

We agree. You know what you mean, but that doesn't mean everyone else knows what you mean...therefore it is dangerous to promote OSAS theology without making clear what that means!
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OSAS means once saved always saved.

You're welcome.

Similar to 'Christ died for all' ? So then ALL are saved?

YOU'RE welcome.
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