Evidence for God from Science

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:20 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:21 pm“Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks … You should think of healthcare providers who are needing them and the people who are ill.”

Same quote, different emphasis. The second part of the quote explains and contextualizes the first part.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:21 pmBy Fauci saying that people should not be wearing masks, the “expert” gave a false idea that we didn’t need a mask. It was wrong...

We didn't have any masks! You can't just ignore that crucial piece of information! There was a nationwide shortage. People were hoarding them, like they hoarded all the hand sanitizer, hand soap, toilet paper, and paper towels. Fauci was prioritizing, based on the situation and the available resources - save the masks for the first responders, nurses, and doctors, and everybody else go home, hunker down, and wait it out.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:21 pm...and if one is using the standard that masks should be worn now, then masks should’ve been worn then.

Then there was a PPE shortage and we were self-quarantining. Now supply has caught up with demand, masks are easy to obtain, and we've stopped quarantining. The situations are different.

Cept one issue. There wasn’t a shortage of masks. At least as far as I know, in my area. I work at a hospital. People hoarded masks at the beginning. We almost ran out. We ordered more. A lot more. We got them. No shortage. I’m sure we’re not an exception. We didn’t have enough in stock, because we weren’t anticipating this. But we had no issue getting what we needed.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:27 pm

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:20 pm

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:21 pm“Right now in the United States people should not be walking around with masks … You should think of healthcare providers who are needing them and the people who are ill.”

Same quote, different emphasis. The second part of the quote explains and contextualizes the first part.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:21 pmBy Fauci saying that people should not be wearing masks, the “expert” gave a false idea that we didn’t need a mask. It was wrong...

We didn't have any masks! You can't just ignore that crucial piece of information! There was a nationwide shortage. People were hoarding them, like they hoarded all the hand sanitizer, hand soap, toilet paper, and paper towels. Fauci was prioritizing, based on the situation and the available resources - save the masks for the first responders, nurses, and doctors, and everybody else go home, hunker down, and wait it out.

RickD wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:21 pm...and if one is using the standard that masks should be worn now, then masks should’ve been worn then.

Then there was a PPE shortage and we were self-quarantining. Now supply has caught up with demand, masks are easy to obtain, and we've stopped quarantining. The situations are different.

Cept one issue. There wasn’t a shortage of masks. At least as far as I know, in my area. I work at a hospital. People hoarded masks at the beginning. We almost ran out. We ordered more. A lot more. We got them. No shortage. I’m sure we’re not an exception. We didn’t have enough in stock, because we weren’t anticipating this. But we had no issue getting what we needed.

I can't speak to what was happening in Florida, but masks were in very short supply in the states like New York and Michigan that got slammed hard early on.
At the time I had no difficulty at all understanding Fauci's recommendation and the reason behind it, because there was a real shortage of PPE for first responders in Michigan.
So to support the real need of first responders I followed Fauci's recommendation not to buy a mask. Instead I made my own mask from rubber bands and a handkerchief that I wore until I was able to purchase the cloth masks that I wear today when I go out in public.

The people in the White House who initiated this anti-Fauci nonsense are the same folks who called the pandemic a 'hoax' and who have constantly tried to minimize the impact the covid-19 pandemic is having on our country.

The good news is that Trump has finally realized that attacking Fauci just damages his own reputation more than it damages Fauci's. So today he started talking about how he and Fauci are getting along and he distanced himself from Navarro's hit piece against Fauci in USA Today.

"He made a statement representing himself," Trump said when questioned about the article. "He shouldn't be doing that. I have a very good relationship with Anthony."
"We're all on the same team," Trump said, "including Dr. Fauci."

DBowling wrote:
The people in the White House who initiated this anti-Fauci nonsense are the same folks who called the pandemic a 'hoax' and who have constantly tried to minimize the impact the covid-19 pandemic is having on our country.

Who in the White House called Covid-19 a hoax?

And what “expert” convinced them it was a hoax?

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 am

DBowling wrote:
The people in the White House who initiated this anti-Fauci nonsense are the same folks who called the pandemic a 'hoax' and who have constantly tried to minimize the impact the covid-19 pandemic is having on our country.

Who in the White House called Covid-19 a hoax?

The tone was set at the very top

Trump, Feb. 28: Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus, you know that right? Coronavirus, they’re politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs. You say, “How’s President Trump doing?” They go, “Oh, not good, not good.” They have no clue. They don’t have any clue. They can’t even count their votes in Iowa. They can’t even count. No, they can’t. They can’t count their votes.

One of my people came up to me and said, “Mr. President, they tried to beat you on Russia, Russia, Russia.” That didn’t work out too well. They couldn’t do it. They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They’d been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning. They lost. It’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax.

And of course Hannity perpetuated Trump's talking points
“They’re scaring the living hell out of people and I see it again as like, ‘Oh, let’s bludgeon Trump with this new hoax.’”

RD: And what “expert” convinced them it was a hoax?

As Trump's response to the covid-19 pandemic demonstrates, Trump doesn't normally pay much attention to the real experts.
He pays attention to those who support and perpetuate his narrative.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:31 amWho in the White House called Covid-19 a hoax?

Trump did. Then he walked it back, sort of, but never forcefully. He created the narrative that Covid, social distancing, school closures, testing, and generally doing anything other than ignoring the problem was a Democratic political maneuver, and then his lackeys in government and the media pushed the narrative. It's one of his favorite tactics - say something to put it out there, but then walk it back just a little, leaving plenty of room for his base to understand that he meant what he said in the first place and the walkback is just political BS. He does that all the time.

At the moment the administration is trying to discredit Fauci and downplay the CDC recommendations. They're threatening to strip special education funding from schools that don't reopen and pass that money on to private charters - literally using Covid as an excuse to attack public education. Note that all of that is political, and none of it has anything to do with keeping people safe. Also note that the guy demanding that every school in the nation reopen in the fall, no matter what, or face economic sanctions is the same guy who used a states' rights argument to back out of a national lockdown or mask mandate.

There are 11,000 kids in Florida with Covid. That's terrible news for two reasons - first, we've been assuming that kids aren't vectors, but it turns out that they damned sure are, and second, we've been assuming that kids are largely unaffected, but now doctors are finding lung damage in asymptomatic children. Yet the White House insists that we charge forward and open schools everywhere, no matter what, or else. That's terrifying.

For an example of Trumpism causing damage you can look to Georgia, where cases are surging and the deaths are trending up, and close Trump ally Brian Kemp just put out an executive order voiding all local mask mandates. That's authoritarian Trumpie virtue signalling at its worst, and it will probably cost lives.

For an example closer to home (for Rick, anyway), DeSantis has ordered that all public schools must open for 5 day per week, brick and mortar school, no matter what. That's reckless to the point of insanity.

A cynical person might look at this and conclude that Trump and his hardline supporters are hoping to use massive outbreaks, along with their attacks on mail-in ballots and the USPS, as a means of suppressing the largely urban Democratic base. Anyone who has a better explanation is welcome to offer it up.

Just one comment regarding the 11,000 positives in children: that’s only who were tested. Who knows how high the number actually is, considering that children may be less affected, and there may be many more asymptotic children.

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:13 am Just one comment regarding the 11,000 positives in children: that’s only who were tested. Who knows how high the number actually is, considering that children may be less affected, and there may be many more asymptotic children.

They apparently tested 54,000 kids. Of those tested 31%, or 11,000, came back positive. So yeah, who knows how many are/were actually infected, but the part where there are asymptomatic kids showing lung damage in x-rays screams for us to slow down on reopening schools until we've got better testing capacity and more data.

edwardmurphy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:18 am

RickD wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:13 am Just one comment regarding the 11,000 positives in children: that’s only who were tested. Who knows how high the number actually is, considering that children may be less affected, and there may be many more asymptotic children.

They apparently tested 54,000 kids. Of those tested 31%, or 11,000, came back positive. So yeah, who knows how many are/were actually infected, but the part where there are asymptomatic kids showing lung damage in x-rays screams for us to slow down on reopening schools until we've got better testing capacity and more data.

Where did you see the info about the lung damage? I’d like to read the article.

Well, in interesting news here, my son's youth pastor just tested positive for Covid-19. The church had only recently allowed some activities to begin again, yet with mandated social spacing and masks. And just today, my wife and I have been discussing whether or not allowing my son (rising 11th grader) to attend is prudent. I don't know the answer - but I do know the risk is still currently considerable. We do not want him to drag something home. As bad as adults often are at being cautious, kids are much worse. It's just a hard time with tough decisions!

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:33 am Well, in interesting news here, my son's youth pastor just tested positive for Covid-19. The church had only recently allowed some activities to begin again, yet with mandated social spacing and masks. And just today, my wife and I have been discussing whether or not allowing my son (rising 11th grader) to attend is prudent. I don't know the answer - but I do know the risk is still currently considerable. We do not want him to drag something home. As bad as adults often are at being cautious, kids are much worse. It's just a hard time with tough decisions!

My prayers go out for your church and youth pastor!

My church recently opened up for in person services a couple of weeks ago with mandated masks and social distancing.
However, the covid numbers for my state and county (which I track daily) like most of the rest of the US are currently headed in the wrong direction. So I am still limiting how much I go out in public, and my family will continue to stream my church's services until the covid numbers get more under control.

My Sunday School class consists primarily of high risk people, so we have a weekly zoom meeting that allows our class to stay in touch (technology can be a struggle for some). Some of the members of my class have chosen to attend the in-person services, but most are using the online streaming.

Thanks, DB - I feel and share your pain!

This is a particularly tough time for churches and their staffs. As with any entity with a building / or mortgage, and cost-related commitments, those costs don't disappear just because people aren't physically attending. And giving tends to go down when they are not. Not to mention, many churches are significantly dependent upon the giving of non-member / regular attenders. One thing is certain, a lot of churches just playing church or promoting harmful practices or doctrine DO need to disappear. But it's a really bad time for churches holding a lot of debt on buildings. But, particularly for large churches, I would imagine lenders will be patient, as such structures aren't often adaptable to just any type of use.

And it gets even "better" - just found out that the youth pastor with Covid was around the entire staff much of the week - meaning they are all now in quarantine and have been tested. And after two Sundays of resumed services - with limited seating for spacing / wearing masks - they've now been cancelled them for the time being.

Philip wrote: ↑Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:40 pm And it gets even "better" - just found out that the youth pastor with Covid was around the entire staff much of the week - meaning they are all now in quarantine and have been tested. And after two Sundays of resumed services - with limited seating for spacing / wearing masks - they've now been cancelled them for the time being.

The girl at my son’s work who tested positive, was around about 6 other people before she was tested. All 6 were quarantined and all 6 tested negative. People who work at my son’s grocery store are around hundreds of people each day. And only a few in the entire store have tested “positive”. None that my son is aware of actually had anything more than flu-like symptoms at worst.

And they certainly are not experts regarding proper mask use.