Evidence for God from Science

Dear Jason,

Yes I did read the chapter and I do actually own the book of Mormon which was posted through my letterbox a few months ago. It is an inspiring document although I'm sure you can understand we have to be careful about which texts are canonical or non-canonical.

You must have misunderstood my question, or I didn't write it clear enough! It is pretty hard to get your head around. I am actually a scholar at Manchester Metropoliton University studying the Christological Controversy, studying all the ecumenical councils especially chalcedeon and nice. I am also a firm believer in the Trinity, and all you have to do is take a look at this website to find hundreds of references to the Trinity in the bible. Personally, however, I don't think it's important for pious Christians to ponder on the thoughts of the Trinity, or which theory is correct etc ... infact, St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop of Constantinople said: "Be always careful not to study to closely the most Holy Trinity, for it is a mystery before our eyes." St. Basil the Great also instructs only those who are scholars to study it "lest their souls be brought to everlasting condemnation through the way their eyes understand." Like you say, however, it is not important.

My actual question really centred around the idea of: how could a man create the world? God MUST have been God before He created the world - we only need to look at the evidence on this website to see that. If you say, "God as the deity created the world" then this strikes the question - surely God was always God? No? I say this, because if God created MAN after the world was created, MAN only existed after the world was created. And if God was MAN before the world was created, how is this possible?

Anyway, your excellent impressive responses have been an eye opener to me! Thank you! Of course I have manifold questions although I don't want to hog your wisdom! hehe. I have actually thought about arranging a meeting with an LDS leader, so that I can ask a few prepared questions. Do you think this is beneficial?

In Christ,
Fr.A

Andrew,
This is a tremendous question it takes an overwhelming understanding of the Nature of God in order to understand the doctrine of Man becoming a God. Where to start? Well you asked, “How could a man create the world?” There must have been a misunderstanding here, I assure you a man did not create the world. I believe Christ created the world under the direction of God the Father. (Just FYI. I believe in the Godhead, God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Three separate beings; one in unity and purpose.)
K, now the LDS church does not just come out and teach this kind of doctrine, this is more for everyone to search the scriptures and strengthen there relationship with God, in order to find out. So this is purely my speculation. Yes this is true God created us [man], after he created this world. But before this world was created. God our Father lived on his own world where he was mortal (in a sense) died and became immortal with a perfect body and an infinite opportunity to learn all things, which he obviously did. Then he created his sprit children (us). Like any Father he loves us and wants us to share in His Glory and Joy. But He could not just give us all the power in the universe, we must learn for ourselves as he did. Our Father, wanting us to become like him made a plan; he told us that we would come to earth in order to obtain a body of flesh and bones. He knew once we came we could never make it back to his presence, it is written: “no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God.” So there had to be a Savoir, who is our Lord Jesus Christ. Christ, the “Sun of the Morning” stepped forward and presented his plan that he would sacrifice himself for all of our sins. So, as God our Father was once a Man and became a God we to have the potential to do the same. And we will also have the opportunity to have our out spirit children to make perfect.

Have you ever heard of the plan of Salvation?

Take care,
Jason

Wow what a big boom in posts all of a sudden! Sorry people completely lost track of it all now! Don't know if page one's the lastest or earliest or whether page five is ..err... *sigh*!

OKAY! Sorry Jason, I just found your last post! hehe...

Anyway, I understand the theory now. If we had a premortal existance, as God's spirit children, why can we not remember it?

____

O yeah, this is an irrelevant theological question ... but ... the gold tablets that Joseph Smith transcribed his prophecies on... what happened to them? Just curious! Do they still exist?
Cheers for all this btw - I'm going to see a "bishop" in your church (well... he's coming to see me in my friary hehe!) and I'm going to ask him a few questions. Should be interesting.

In Christ's name,
Fr.A

Andrew,
This is an excellent question! If we lived a pre-mortal life why can we not remember it? Like I said before, we were sent down to earth in order to learn grow, and most importantly, get a body. But an additional reason we were sent was to prove our loyalty to God. If He is going to trust us with all that he has to offer we must prove ourselves to him. If there was no veil of forgetfulness, then there wouldn't exist such a thing as faith, catch me?

Now as for the plates, I can imagine they are sealed up and in Gods safe hands, but we can all have our own copies if we so wish. Yes I'm sure it sounds kind of fishy but the Lord says: “out of the mouth of two or three will my word be established.” And there were many besides Joseph Smith who saw and testified of the validity of the Golden Plates. Something to consider, David Whitmer (one of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon.) left the Mormon church in 1838 but continued to proclaim and assert his testimony and the truthfulness of what he had seen and heard. Although Whitmer never returned to Mormonism, in the fifty years he lived outside of the Church he insisted that he knew the Book of Mormon was divinely revealed. He was prosecuted his whole life but he would not deny it, I mean lets be honest would you, after you had left the church and become an outcast still testify of the Divinity of the Book of Mormon if you hadn't seen it and been told by God to testify of it?

Anyway, it's great to hear that you're talking to a Bishop! I hope he has the answers your looking for; my knowledge is pretty limited on some subjects, but I love the questions; they really make me think and reaffirm my testimony in my faith. Thanks!!!

Your brother,
Jason

Brother Jason!

I must say - the theory of premortal existance does make sense. It makes more sense that God would make the Earth for us to be tested, for a test of loyalty, rather than the lame usual reason: "God made the world because He wanted to."

I'm sure you'll be interested to hear, that when I conduct my interview with Bishop Osmond, I will be recording it on a mini recorder, and as soon as I finish I'll eagrely come and share my findings with you!!

Also, I don't mean to dishonour your humility, but can I say I don't think I've found a person like you yet, who can support his beliefs through biblical evidence, and ignores the senseless objections people have to your faith.

Have you read the "LDS" section on this "evidence for God" website? I wonder what you think of that? Listed "contradictions in Mormon doctrine." I personally have not been affected by these investigations on that page, since most of the quotes either misinterpret that which is the truth, or seem to twist the reality of the matter.

And one final question!! I promise!! What does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe about people of other faiths? Even if they are faithful to their apostolic religions - such as mine - I am an Archpriest in the Catholic Church - what does LDS doctrine have to say about what will happen to people like me?

In Christ,
Fr.A

Andrew,

Hey I'm glad to hear that Gods plan makes sense to you, truly. I think it is important to understand why we are here and also to our potential as children of God! Here is a cool site that has a little more about it. It even has a cool picture! ;-) http://www.home.earthlink.net/~dsscheibe/theplans.htm

That's great! I'm excited to hear your findings from the interview with the Bishop.

I actually have not read the LDS section on this site, but I'm sure they bring up the same “contradictions” as all the other sites with Anti Mormon Propaganda. I have read over and over the same material, about the Nature of God, Heaven and Hell, Polygamy and all other “contradictions” and as you said most of the time they take scripture completely out of context. That, or they twist and just don't understand. From this site here is an example:

One God, this can be a hard concept to grasp but it can also be quite simple if you understand a few things: First you will agree with me that Jesus Christ of the new testament and Jehovah of the old testament are both the same person. But it is important to remember that Christ is only the creator of our physical bodies, when Jehovah, the God of the Old testament says “Let us make man in our own image” he is speaking with His Father Eloheim, so in that sense Christ is our father, but also keeping in mind that Eloheim is the Father of our spirits. This is why it is impossible for science to create human being; you know, like Frankenstein, because it takes body and sprit. So they are both our fathers in different ways. So Christ or Jehovah Is the Father and the Son because he was the father of our bodies and He to became a man of flesh and blood and as such became a Son just like you and I. Another thing to remember is that the Bible and The Book of Mormon are Testaments of Jesus Christ, so in most cases when they refer to the Father and the Son, it is Christ, and Jehovah, who are the same person. I hope all that made some sense, because the Bible makes it extremely clear that there are three separate beings, God the Father (Eloheim), His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

I think I have posted this before but it makes a lot of sense.

If we look at Acts 7:55-56 when Stephen saw both the Father and the Son. How could Stephen have seen two personages, and yet Christ teach one? Its an easy answer--Christ taught that they were two, and that he was separate from his Father. In John 8:17-18 Christ spoke with the Jews, who accused Christ of being an imposter because he was the only one that bore witness of himself. It is a rule in Jewish Law that the testimony of two witnesses or three was true. Christ replied, "It is also written in your law that the testimony of TWO MEN is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and THe Father that sent me beareth witness of me." Here Christ compared himself and his Father to two men. Christ states in John 10:30 that he and his Father are one, but in John 17 20-21 he explained what he meant when he said, praying to the Father, "that they may be one, (reffering to his disciples (sorry not us as i said before.)), Father, as thou are in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou has sent me." I chanllenge you to take this scripture literally also. Hre Christ prayed that his disciples would be one "as he and His Father are one." they were one, but one in purpose and unity.

When the Father bore witness that Christ was the Son of God in Matthew 16: 15-19, it was Christ who said "Blessed are thou, Simon Barjona; for FLES AND BLOOD hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Christ at this time had a body of flesh and blood yet told Peter that flesh and blood had not born that witness, but his Heavenly Father. In answer to John 14:12, when he declared, "Verily, verily, Isay unto you, He that believeth in me, the works that I do shal he so also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." Why would he go unto his Father if he were the Father? This teaching is abominable. It would be so senseless for Christ in the 26th Chapter of Matthew to pray to the Father and ask if the "bitter cup" might be removed, if he were the Father. What mockery it would have been in Gethsemane to pray unto himself, being the Father. After his resurrection, he told Mary Magdaline not to touch him for "I have not yet ascended to my Father." (John 20:17) Also Jesus said only his Father in Heaven knows when Jesus will come again. Now, if Jesus real is the Father, why didnt he know when he was coming again; furthermore, when Christ was baptized a voice from the heaven said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." The example of the Father and Son as two seprate people is quite obvious.

Now as for what LDS believe, we believe what God has taught us, In Matt. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. There is one way, sorry, one strait and narrow way back to God. But I nor any other LDS members can say what will happen to anyone, I know there are many LDS members who are less worthy of the Celestial Kingdom then other Christians. I can only say what the Lord has said, and I know it is true.


Your Brother,
Jason

FrAndrew wrote:I must say - the theory of premortal existance does make sense. It makes more sense that God would make the Earth for us to be tested, for a test of loyalty, rather than the lame usual reason: "God made the world because He wanted to."

I'm suprised that an arch-priest would not have come across Irenaeus' idea for the purpose in God creating this world during seminary?

Kurieuo.

Kurieou,

Irenaeus's idea was exactly that - and idea. As Catholics, the Holy Father tells us not to dwell on these thoughts, in his 31st Canonical Doxology to the faithful in Constantinople - section 142. I believe others' encouraging beliefs can be beneficial - and I also believe that we should accept people with love. The Catholic Church also believes that there is love and goodness in everything, and that God judges our conscience. Finally - there are more important subjects than this - and whatever we believe about before we were born, is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

In Christ,
Fr.A

""Some ("holier-than- thou" students) begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed. In this conception a current and unwise book, which advocates gaining a special relationship with Jesus, contains this sentence - quote: "Because the Saviour is our mediator, our prayers go through Christ to the Father, and the Father answers our prayers through his son. " Unquote. This is plain sectarian nonsense. Our prayers are addressed to the Father, and to him only. They do not go through Christ...You have never heard the First Presidency or the Twelve...advocate this excessive zeal that calls for gaining a so called special and personal relationship with Christ...never, never at any time have they taught or endorsed the inordinate and intemperate zeal that encourages endless, sometimes day-long prayers, in order to gain a personal relationship with the Saviour...I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer's system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church." (Bruce McConkie, Speech at BYU on March 2 1982). "

I just came up around this text - and it sort of follows on from your last post. Do members of LDS worship Jesus, and if not, do they have a personal relationship with Him?

In Christ,
Fr.A
ps: ill take a look at that site now.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to your statement: "It makes more sense that God would make the Earth for us to be tested..."

During my philosophy class, undertaken at a Catholic institution, we were required to dwell on these and other thoughts of early Christian theologians. Irenaeus' theodicy included the belief that our world was created with the purpose of refining us. Now I don't agree with Catholics on many issues, but it just seemed to me like you were cutting short Catholicism's (and Christianity's in general) own theologically rich background. I was therefore a bit taken back that you would have only heard such a shallow response such as "God made the world because He wanted to."

Kurieuo.

I'm just curious Jason. You said God was once mortal in another world. If He was once mortal, who made Him?

Mastermind - that's ultimately the question I was trying to ask if you read up^^.

Kureou, please let me assure you that I am firm in my beliefs - and although I appreciate the good sense of other faiths, I do not neccessarily believe them. Rather listen with an attentive ear. As for the creation of the world - the Catholic Doctrine of the Holy Fathers, is indeed that God created the world because "he deigned to do so, and that it would be." (Vaticano II #7771.) This is not to say that Irenaeus' thoughts are not be ignored - not at all. You will find, however, that the doctrine behing pre-mortal existance is somewhat different that Irenaeus' vision of pro-refinistic existance. This is all a relatively new thing to me, and I was simply noting that the theory is not to be knocked out of the window just because the patristical fathers did not entertain or even reflect upon it.

In Christ,
Fr.A

Andrew,

In reply to your post asking if we beilve in Christ. Yes we do he is our Savior and our only way back to our Father in Heaven, we pray to our Father in the name of Jesus Christ because that is how we are asked to pray. Christ is the very corner stone of our religion, we love him, we learn of him, we worship him.

As for the other question asked, who is Heavenly Fathers father? I do not know, nor am I going to try to find out. The whole purpose of being on earth is to show God that we can be obedient not to try to figure out when everything started. The only way God is going to let us share in his glory is if he knows that we are obedient and that we will only do his will. Christ said. "And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11) now surely will not physicaly become one, but one in unity and purpose, as Christ, Heavenly Father, and The Holy Ghost are one in unity and purpose.


Now let me ask a question, do you belive God uses science as a tool to create?

Your Brother,
Jason

Umm, I think that refers to the believers to act as one LIKE God, not act or be one WITH God. I fail to see how one can deduce that we will all become like God from that verse.