catholics/christians

[Mastermind]

hey are not connected. They do not depend on one another.

That depends on the person. You may not feel the connection but your opinion on the matter does not dictate whether others do.

[Dan]

dan

revaluation 22
revers 8
has i heard and saw all of this i bent down and began worship at the feet of the angel who had showen it to me.

and revaluation 22 revers 9 the angel says
don't do that! i am a servant, just like you. I am the same as a follower or a prophet or anyone else who obeys what is written in his book god is the one you should worship.

and about john rewriting the bible
revaluation 22 reverse 18
here is my warning to for everyone who hears the prophecies in this book if you add anything to them, God will make you suffer all the terrible troubles written in his book
verse 19 says
if you take anything away from these prophecies, God will not let you have part in the life-giving tree and in the holy city described in this book.

Where did I say catholics bow down and worship saints? It's brotherhood, the saints in heaven aren't greater than us down on Earth, they're still our brothers and sisters though and dead can't change that. We still can communicate with them and that can be achieved through prayer (which really is communication with spirits). Prayer to a saint is not the same as prayer to God, while one accomplishes communication with someone you'd regard as a friend, the other is direct communication to the Allmighty Lord which is in a category of it's own. They're separate things.

[Dan]

Dan, to say that if that one verse tarreyl pointed out wasn't in the Bible the RCC would add these other mysterious "oral traditions" that supposedly were directed by the apostles after John wrote Revelation, just doesn't seem right. They added apocryphal books to the Old Testament, and, according to you, ideally would like to add to the New Testament as well. I would like to see whatever proof you have that the apostles really did teach such traditions as are seen in the RCC today. Please provide this, or I will disgard your comment on it. As for transubstansiation, I believe it is a false assumption that ignores the nature of Christ's presenting the, yes, biblical ritual. I had hoped that it would have been understood by my previous post that such things as baptisms, wedding ceremonies and also Communion were not what I was talking about. These things, done in a biblical way, are not the rituals I meant. I should have called them man-made rituals from the beginning. But back to transubstansiation- Jesus meant the bread and wine to be a symbolic way to remember His sacrifice and our own union with that sacrifice, having accepted it and Christ now living within as a result. Same goes for "the Lord's Prayer". It was a general guide for prayer, and by no means was meant to be repeated word for word. God is not legalistic, and He does not give us words to repeat that we would need to try to fit into our particualr situations. I cringe inside whenever I hear a group of people "pray" it together, (and why in such a drone-like, lifeless way anyway?) or when I hear people "pray" the same words together. Prayer is supposed to be a unique expression of your heart to God's. The true nature of it is lost in such things. Also, you really believe that you only receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit when you particiapate in the outward act of water baptism? This is entirely unscriptual! The baptism of the Holy Spirit was given to many people in the New Testament before they were water baptized. In fact, Peter recognized that Gentiles were given this by God, and so declared that if God would give Gentiles the baptism of the Holy Spirit, there is no reason that they should not be allowed the physical representation of it. Spirit and fire first, water second. That's the biblical doctrine on it.

Simply because you do not acknowledge the purpose of the rituals does not make them unhealthy to a Christian. You simply do not understand what is at work behind the scenes when these things are being done, the Holy Ghost is there and the works serve to glorify Christ as faith is in the background, there to cement the link between worldly Christian and spiritual and Holy Christ.

I fully acknowledge the take you have on all this. I recognize your view on it. I have heard you completely and understood what your saying. What I say is, though, that your take does not line up with God's Word. Your very own Bible, sitting on your shelf or headboard or whereever, contradicts your stance on this. It has been consitant throughout the Bible that the spiritual is what is to come first, then the external expression of it if there is to be one at all. They are not connected. They do not depend on one another. Faith=instanst justification, which =works, one of which is baptism, though baptism is not necessary.

the works serve to glorify Christ as faith is in the background, there to cement the link between worldly Christian and spiritual and Holy Christ.

Here did you mean that faith is what does the "cementing", or the works plus the faith? Faith is indeed the biblical, God-chosen method, but does not require works to be there along side.

Wall of text. Oh dear.... that's a lot to read.

Oral traditions aren't held as high as Biblical teachings. They are beliefs the church holds as insightful and favorable in the eyes of God, but not infallible biblical beliefs.

However, that is not definite because they're not in the bible. They were not mentioned in the letters (well some of them are but that takes interpretation to extract them, which some people don't agree with), so why should they be regarded as good to hold onto in the first place? Well, if they were wrong the Holy Ghost would have removed them. Actually, catholic tradition HAS changes and we can attribute that to the Holy Ghost doing it's work. God isn't just going to leave over a billion catholics in the dark about what they're doing, He will correct them when they listen and they listen.

Ok, the transubsantiation bit; how do YOU know Jesus meant it to be symbolic? Perhaps he was describing a physical ritual that had His spiritual glory behind it. The transubstantiation is an example of a physical ritual that has spiritual grounding and one that's sole attempt is to glorify Christ.

Then you go on about your opinion! Wow! Yay!

Some people LIKE an ordered structure to worshipping God. Some people want to be guided to Him. Some people are unsure about what they should do to worship God and are unsure about how they interpret the bible. These people tend to drift to catholicism because it's a guiding light to Jesus that they know they can trust.

Then you call people who pray together drones. That is an insult. Why is it drone behavior to want to pray together. Maybe you don't understand where these practices come from but those who practice them and are true Christians see their true value. All you see is the outside, but the ones inside can see Christ everywhere.

You then try to define prayer, but I don't see you quoting the Bible for this interpretation. Give one verse where it says prayer can't be recited word.

Actually, in the beatitudes Jesus Christ gives a prayer that He advises to be said, and guess what, you don't have to change the words around every time you say it.

Of course, you assume that the true purpose of prayer is lost when someone does things different from what you want. You're not Catholic, you don't know what goes through their minds and hearts when they pray the way they do. You're not in a position to judge them, unless you can see into the hearts and minds and spirits of people while they pray.

You're putting words in my mouth about baptism. I didn't say water baptism was <i>required</i> for spiritual baptism, I just said that while you are baptised in water, Jesus Christ is baptising you with the Holy Spirit. He can baptise you without the physical baptism.

Final paragraph:

Don't you dare tell me what God's word is and what it isn't. He's communicated to me what is acceptable in His eyes. I don't need you, or anyone else to tell me what He wants. If He disagrees with me, He can make me feel it in my heart, and He has done this before. You don't really understand what I see, you don't understand what Catholics see. The way they worship God is perfectly fine, maybe you don't want to accept that.

The external expression of Catholics come from their desire to glorify God. Glory to God first.

Last sentence:

Yes it does, faith without works is dead.

[tarreyl]

dan

hebrew 3 verse 3
and so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are bound for heaven think about this jesus whom we declare to be god's messenger and high priest

that he is ARE HIGH PRIEST NOT A CARDINAL OR A POPE


AND ABOUT CERAMONICES
ROMAN 4 VERSE 11
The circumcision ceremony was a sign that abraham already had faith and god had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous-even beforen he was circumcised. NOW READ THIS THEY ARE MADE RIGHT WITH GOD BECAUSE OF FAITH.
VERSE 12
and abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith abraham had before he was circumcised

so how can a baby have faith before you bapstise it how can a little kid be confimed that he/she is devoted just on faith not on because the parent are catholic and they want the kids to be how does a kid now that they are making a promise not just to the church but to god that. Does a baby now what god is but they are bapstised by catholics and does and 7 or 8 when they are confirmed that it not just a ritual or cermonie you so call it

[Felgar]

Friendly reminder to keep things civil ladies and gentlemen.

I thought I had a good biblical case for all of us discussing the matter gently, but if that doesn't work maybe my new mod powers will. Just kidding, but do try to be polite.

[Dan]

dan

hebrew 3 verse 3
and so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are bound for heaven think about this jesus whom we declare to be god's messenger and high priest

that he is ARE HIGH PRIEST NOT A CARDINAL OR A POPE


AND ABOUT CERAMONICES
ROMAN 4 VERSE 11
The circumcision ceremony was a sign that abraham already had faith and god had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous-even beforen he was circumcised. NOW READ THIS THEY ARE MADE RIGHT WITH GOD BECAUSE OF FAITH.
VERSE 12
and abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith abraham had before he was circumcised

so how can a baby have faith before you bapstise it how can a little kid be confimed that he/she is devoted just on faith not on because the parent are catholic and they want the kids to be how does a kid now that they are making a promise not just to the church but to god that. Does a baby now what god is but they are bapstised by catholics and does and 7 or 8 when they are confirmed that it not just a ritual or cermonie you so call it

Congratulations for not knowing anything about who the Pope is. The Pope is the vicar of Christ, he is the highest authority <b>on Earth</b>.

I can't understand the rest of your post

[bizzt]

Where did I say catholics bow down and worship saints? It's brotherhood, the saints in heaven aren't greater than us down on Earth, they're still our brothers and sisters though and dead can't change that. We still can communicate with them and that can be achieved through prayer (which really is communication with spirits). Prayer to a saint is not the same as prayer to God, while one accomplishes communication with someone you'd regard as a friend, the other is direct communication to the Allmighty Lord which is in a category of it's own. They're separate things.

Ummm So what you are saying is we can pray to Saints, Virgin Mary, Paul, Peter, John?? WHY?? Why would you pray to a Saint when you can pray with fellow believers still alive. Do Saints hear our Prayers. Please Scriptural Proof??

[Dan]

Where did I say catholics bow down and worship saints? It's brotherhood, the saints in heaven aren't greater than us down on Earth, they're still our brothers and sisters though and dead can't change that. We still can communicate with them and that can be achieved through prayer (which really is communication with spirits). Prayer to a saint is not the same as prayer to God, while one accomplishes communication with someone you'd regard as a friend, the other is direct communication to the Allmighty Lord which is in a category of it's own. They're separate things.

Ummm So what you are saying is we can pray to Saints, Virgin Mary, Paul, Peter, John?? WHY?? Why would you pray to a Saint when you can pray with fellow believers still alive. Do Saints hear our Prayers. Please Scriptural Proof??

Why do you differentiate between Christians who still are on Earth and Christians who have passed on? Surely we all are alive in Jesus Christ and this is the only benchmark we should use to declare if someone is alive or dead?

My proof? God is the Lord of the Living, not the dead, Abraham is alive, Jacob is alive, and so is every Christian. There is no logical way to determine if someone is alive or dead if we use the Bible. All christians are alive and so all can communicate with each other.

[Mastermind]

Do Saints hear our Prayers. Please Scriptural Proof??

Revelation says something about the saints seeing the living christians get tribulated and asking God when they will be avenged. I've been meaning to track down the exact verses for quite a while. Maybe somebody can look into it.

[bizzt]

Why do you differentiate between Christians who still are on Earth and Christians who have passed on? Surely we all are alive in Jesus Christ and this is the only benchmark we should use to declare if someone is alive or dead?

My proof? God is the Lord of the Living, not the dead, Abraham is alive, Jacob is alive, and so is every Christian. There is no logical way to determine if someone is alive or dead if we use the Bible. All christians are alive and so all can communicate with each other.

Interesting Take. By the way I am not bashing Catholics just want to understand... One is that the Christians that are Dead have fallen asleep (don't know about you but when I am asleep I am out COLD ).

[kateliz]

That's hilarious because the vatican teaches that all people who live holy lives under Christ are saints. The ones canonized are the ones who have proof that they lived holy lives and proof that a miracle was observed after asking intercession through the saint candidate after they have died.

Hmmm, I went today and got me a catechism and "catholic dictionary", (by a Catholic,) and this is what is under the word "Saint":

Saints
A name given in the New Testament to Christians generally (Colossians 1:2) but early restricted to persons who were eminent for holiness. In the strict sense saints are those who distinguish themselves by heroic virtue during life and whom the Church honors as saints either by her ordinary universal teaching authority or by a solemn definition called canonization. The Church's official recognition of sanctity implies that the persons are now in heavenly glory, that they may be publicly invoked everywhere, and that their virtues during llife or martyr's death are a witness and example to the Christian faithful. (Etym. Latin sanctus, holy, sacred.

I am failing to find an all-inclusive definition of what a RCC "saint" is in the catechism. However, I have come across something interesting on baptism while researching that:

The baptismal water is consecrated by a prayer of epiclesis (either at this moment or at the Easter Vigil). The Church asks God that through his Son the power of the Holy Spirit may be sent upon the water, so that those who will be baptized in it may be "born of water and the Spirit." The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ.

It's quite heart warming actually, in protestantism, you're pretty much alone with christ. In the Catholic faith, everyone, dead and alive, are together as one family. Prayer to saints shows this especially well, everyone in the faith is linked together and the same is true for the Eastern and Russian Orthodox churches. However I never had that same feeling with protestantism. Catholic teaches really do make you feel like you're part of one big family under christ.

You are very misinformed on this. All Protestants (except for probably a few funny ones,) would believe in the Body of Christ. We are all one Body, with Christ as the Head, and each of us individual members of it performing, (or should be,) our own specific tasks according to the spiritual gifts God gives us. I believe that according to what I read of the "communion of the saints" in the Catechism and what you've said yourself, that we would all agree on this issue. It is encouraging that Catholics have a fuller understanding of the connectedness of the members of the Body, however that does not mean that we are to pray to those members of our Body who have past on into a different realm of being and are preoccupied with things the Bible isn't too clear on. Angels are our ministering spirits that go to and fro from Paradise for our sakes. Heck, I don't even think God would consider it "proper" for us to petition Jesus, (though since He's God and God is One it's not really wrong,) seeing as how He made it clear that Jesus' purpose was to allow us to go straight to the Father! We are to boldly approach the throne of God to present our petitions. This liberty was given us by our one Mediator, and He eagerly wants us to use it... liberally!

And I can't see how you could consider a faulty understanding of the unity of Christ's Body "heart warming." This I found offensive only because it suggests a very cold heart on your part. I hope you didn't mean it like it sounds!

kateliz wrote: They are not connected. They do not depend on one another.

Mastermind wrote: That depends on the person. You may not feel the connection but your opinion on the matter does not dictate whether others do.

Isn't anyone paying attention to what I mean here? I'm not talking about feelings and opinions and things that are unique to individuals- I'm talking about absolute truths that do not change person to person. Faith is not tied down to works. It is wholly different. It is only after faith that works come into play, but as a result of faith, and not because they are one-and-the-same. MM, I doubt that you believe you must be physically baptized before you receive salvation, but that's what you're saying by gluing faith and works together. Either that or a faith-works salvation, which you've supported here in explanations of your beliefs but have declared yourself against. Faith does not depend on works. If it did then we would have cause to boast and would have a degree of self-righteousness, our good works helping us to become "white as snow" in the sight of God and so fit to enter His Kingdom.

the saints in heaven aren't greater than us down on Earth, they're still our brothers and sisters

According to official RCC views, they are closer to Christ than us and so venerance for them is demanded, (not my words; I saw it in the Catechism but don't want to look it up now). And certainly their official views state that Mary, (she is no longer a virgin- she and Joseph had a few kids of their own!) is "greater" than all the rest of the "faithful", (RCC term). She is in whom it's made holy in, (Catechism again, somewhere I saw today). I haven't researched her yet, but I've certainly found some stuff that very concerning.

Well, if they were wrong the Holy Ghost would have removed them. Actually, catholic tradition HAS changes and we can attribute that to the Holy Ghost doing it's work. God isn't just going to leave over a billion catholics in the dark about what they're doing, He will correct them when they listen and they listen.

I beg to differ. You're implying that the Catholic denomination as a whole is specially protected by God from long-standing faults. Where's anything like this proclaimed in the Bible? The "catholic church" is not the catholic church. The catholic, or true church is the collective Body of Christ including members of numerous denominations and of those not belonging to one, or those not even aware of the history of Jesus Christ, (like those unevangelized whom God has chosen as His own.) This as a whole is not even protected in the special way you claim your denomination is. Christians are very faulty in their theology overall!

Ok, the transubsantiation bit; how do YOU know Jesus meant it to be symbolic? Perhaps he was describing a physical ritual that had His spiritual glory behind it. The transubstantiation is an example of a physical ritual that has spiritual grounding and one that's sole attempt is to glorify Christ.

Then you go on about your opinion! Wow! Yay!

Gee, thanks. Yes, it's symbolic. That's what I said. And being understood as symbolic, why make it literal? And besides, Jesus said Himself He was speaking only figuratively: "These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; and hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but will tell you plainly of the Father," (John 16:25).

I would like to finish commenting on all of the comments, but I have to go to bed now, and I hopefully will finish this post, (in another post,) tomorrow.

[Mastermind]

Isn't anyone paying attention to what I mean here? I'm not talking about feelings and opinions and things that are unique to individuals- I'm talking about absolute truths that do not change person to person. Faith is not tied down to works. It is wholly different. It is only after faith that works come into play, but as a result of faith, and not because they are one-and-the-same. MM, I doubt that you believe you must be physically baptized before you receive salvation, but that's what you're saying by gluing faith and works together. Either that or a faith-works salvation, which you've supported here in explanations of your beliefs but have declared yourself against. Faith does not depend on works. If it did then we would have cause to boast and would have a degree of self-righteousness, our good works helping us to become "white as snow" in the sight of God and so fit to enter His Kingdom.

Repeating the same thing over and over and over doesn't make you right.

[kateliz]

Oh, come on Mastermind, use what you've "mastered"! I'm repeating for clarification; and what's your response to my clarification attempt? More muddling! You can't have a good debate when, in a rebutal, you don't fully acknowledge and respond to what the other people in the debate say! Do you or don't you believe in faith/works salvation? Or how do you think the two work together? And which of you believe that the absolute truth for rituals is that it is a variable truth that differs from one to another? You guys say that some people like it and are benefited by it, but that it might not "work" for others, who could, like you say I do, not understand the true purpose behind or the benefits of those rituals. I say that it doesn't vary from person to person but is an absolute truth, (repeating again for more clarification.) So, as a result of this presented disagreement, let's please discuss the issue of whether this is or is not ultimately a steady truth or a variable one.

[Mastermind]

Oh, come on Mastermind, use what you've "mastered"! I'm repeating for clarification; and what's your response to my clarification attempt? More muddling! You can't have a good debate when, in a rebutal, you don't fully acknowledge and respond to what the other people in the debate say! Do you or don't you believe in faith/works salvation? Or how do you think the two work together? And which of you believe that the absolute truth for rituals is that it is a variable truth that differs from one to another? You guys say that some people like it and are benefited by it, but that it might not "work" for others, who could, like you say I do, not understand the true purpose behind or the benefits of those rituals. I say that it doesn't vary from person to person but is an absolute truth, (repeating again for more clarification.) So, as a result of this presented disagreement, let's please discuss the issue of whether this is or is not ultimately a steady truth or a variable one.

There is nothing to discuss. You either believe God works through different people in different ways like I do, or you can think God works the exact same way through everybody. It's a difference of opinion that will never be settled, especially with your (mis) interpretation of Catholic doctrine. You're going to be against it no matter what I or anybody else says. Why beat a dead horse?

[kateliz]

Back to buisness!

Some people LIKE an ordered structure to worshipping God. Some people want to be guided to Him. Some people are unsure about what they should do to worship God and are unsure about how they interpret the bible. These people tend to drift to catholicism because it's a guiding light to Jesus that they know they can trust.

Okay, first of all, how do these people who know so little about God know that they can trust that particular denomination? That defies logic! Again, (and again, and again, and... what's this MM? Oh, and again!) what matters is not what people "LIKE" but what's true and in accordane to how God works and His nature. If people need the help you mention, they should be able to get it from just about any Christian who's not a baby Christian anymore.

They don't, and shouldn't, have to have their hands held every Sunday for the rest of their lives. When you're a new Christian you should be instructed in how to begin your own relationship with God where, along with help from other Christians, you get most of your direction from God Himself, (and that mainly from the Bible, the ultimate handbook on how to be a Christian.) And these instructions or teachings should be simply teachings in the form of shepherding.

Then you call people who pray together drones. That is an insult. Why is it drone behavior to want to pray together. Maybe you don't understand where these practices come from but those who practice them and are true Christians see their true value.

Misunderstanding! I asked: "why in such a drone-like, lifeless way anyway?" I meant their voices. Do you talk to your friends in a monotone way? No? Then why in the world talk to God like that? That's what I meant by saying, "drone-like." Those practices come from the minds of men.

Jesus never said, "repeat what I say," He said to use the prayer He provided as an example as a general guideline for your own prayers. As for biblical proof, I'm afraid the only I currently have is the nature of how Jesus meant it. This is clear from the text itself as far as I'm concerned. I highly doubt that you could provide much better proof for you own interpretation though, but if you have it please share.

Of course, you assume that the true purpose of prayer is lost when someone does things different from what you want.

Again, it's not what I "want" that matters, as we both agree, but what is true. This statement I will not comment on further because frankly, it's a nasty attack.

You're putting words in my mouth about baptism. I didn't say water baptism was required for spiritual baptism, I just said that while you are baptised in water, Jesus Christ is baptising you with the Holy Spirit. He can baptise you without the physical baptism.

Glad you believe they're separate, but it's still not what your words portrayed, even in this second statement. However, as I quoted the Catechism on, this is not the official stance of the RCC.

Don't you dare tell me what God's word is and what it isn't. He's communicated to me what is acceptable in His eyes. I don't need you, or anyone else to tell me what He wants. If He disagrees with me, He can make me feel it in my heart, and He has done this before. You don't really understand what I see, you don't understand what Catholics see. The way they worship God is perfectly fine, maybe you don't want to accept that.

I could say the same thing of myself and those who align with my views, though I wouldn't be so harsh. It's not proof for either of us.

Yes it does, faith without works is dead.

So do you believe that you have to do good works in addition to having faith in order to get to heaven? And if so, please provide ample biblical proof, (I've already posted on this thread my own share.)


MM, again you fail to understand me! It's frustrating! Please stop!
Besides, it's bad debate form to skim over the other's points and so draw wrong conclusions. I'm talking about apples, and you respond by talking about oranges. It doesn't work like that! And I don't want to have to defend my logic in this paragraph after another response of poor logic and assumptions. I guess I'm asking for it by what I've written though!