God's Knowing

[kateliz]

It's funny, I have nothing to say! I must be sick or something!

[CountryBoy]

Kateliz,

A good dose of earnest bible study and serious prayer will cure you.

CB

[kateliz]

Now why would I try to cure myself with the exact things that got me "sick" in the first place?

And doesn't anyone have a real response to my previous statements on why I believe in determinism? Felgar came close. I feel they were passed over and other things were attacked or offensive action was taken instead.

[bizzt]

Now why would I try to cure myself with the exact things that got me "sick" in the first place?

And doesn't anyone have a real response to my previous statements on why I believe in determinism? Felgar came close. I feel they were passed over and other things were attacked or offensive action was taken instead.

Because too little makes you sick but TOO MUCH Cures you! Anyways Can you explain basically why you believe in what you believe then Give Scriptural Evidence to back it up. After you are done look for Scriptural Evidence to refute yourself (always good to do that!!)

[Felgar]

And doesn't anyone have a real response to my previous statements on why I believe in determinism? Felgar came close. I feel they were passed over and other things were attacked or offensive action was taken instead.

John 3:16 says it all really. God doesn't reserve His love for a few 'chosen ones' and cast His love and mercy aside for everyone else. God so loved the world that He gave His son, that whosoever believes will have eternal life. It doesnt say, 'God so loved his chosen few, that He gave His son for them.'

I just have nothing further to add Kate... If you ask some specific questions I can answer. But I stand by my conviction that the article I posted is a proper and correct intrepretation of scripture on this topic.

[j316]

If God went to all the trouble to create and unfold His plan for salvation, that is essentially the entire OT story, then why would He just leave it all up in the air at the cross? It doesn't make sense and there must be something we don't understand.

At the risk of being elitist I would point out that Revelation doesn't seem to be all-inclusive, not all of mankind will be saved. It does not seem logical that God would leave it up to chance in regard to whom will be saved. What about the book of the living?

Christianity is not PC. if you attempt to make it fit that mold you substitute man's will for God's.

[Felgar]

Christianity is not PC. if you attempt to make it fit that mold you substitute man's will for God's.

I disagree. Christianity is freedom, and serves as the basis for what PC SHOULD be. Granted, our social norms nowadays are way of line, but that's societies fault, not the fault of the fundamental principles laid down by Christ.

He said, "Freely, freely you have received; Freely, freely give. Go in my name and because you believe, Others will know that I live."

[j316]

Felgar I think you actually agreed with me, all you did was restate my point.

[Felgar]

Felgar I think you actually agreed with me, all you did was restate my point.

Heh... Ok. I guess I kinda got the wrong impression from your Christianity not being inclusive and not PC comments.

[madscientist]

Let me provide what I think to be a key to this issue. Out of all the logically possible worlds, God chose this one wherein you would live in this time and location, and He knew all the decisions and actions you would make. It could have been otherwise. You could have been placed at a different time and location, or He could have created a world that is very different from the one within which we live. Within this possible alternative world, you could have carried out very different actions and decisions, including not finding Him.

Now the moment God chose to create this world based on His foreknowledge of everything that would happen, was not everything you would freely do in this particular world, time and place already set? Therefore God predestined you to be saved by choosing this world out of all the other possible worlds He could have created within which He foreknew you would freely choose Him.

Kurieuo.

One thing ive also ben thiniking about. Y did God chgoose this world, with these laws? Y was i born there, at that time, with that genetic info., from those parents as their nth child etc... Y cudnt i b different? And yes if i were different id say 'u am i noy like that?' etc it cud go to infinity...
But did god chsoe me to be born at that time, with that knowledge, those parents, those opportunities, etc? Thats predestination then...
Ands i think the most strining thing about god is he knows everythong. He knows how the world would have looekd like 30 years later if for example 459 years a ruler in country x decided spmethong esle... That god knows everthing and that allows him to choose wat to do and has his plans.
But still, free will above all. If som1 chooses to accept god, jesus cghrist as his savior he shud b saved whatecver the circumstances

[B. W.]

Let me provide what I think to be a key to this issue. Out of all the logically possible worlds, God chose this one wherein you would live in this time and location, and He knew all the decisions and actions you would make. It could have been otherwise. You could have been placed at a different time and location, or He could have created a world that is very different from the one within which we live. Within this possible alternative world, you could have carried out very different actions and decisions, including not finding Him.

Now the moment God chose to create this world based on His foreknowledge of everything that would happen, was not everything you would freely do in this particular world, time and place already set? Therefore God predestined you to be saved by choosing this world out of all the other possible worlds He could have created within which He foreknew you would freely choose Him.

Kurieuo.

One thing ive also ben thiniking about. Y did God chgoose this world, with these laws? Y was i born there, at that time, with that genetic info., from those parents as their nth child etc... Y cudnt i b different? And yes if i were different id say 'u am i noy like that?' etc it cud go to infinity...
But did god chsoe me to be born at that time, with that knowledge, those parents, those opportunities, etc? Thats predestination then...
Ands i think the most strining thing about god is he knows everythong. He knows how the world would have looekd like 30 years later if for example 459 years a ruler in country x decided spmethong esle... That god knows everthing and that allows him to choose wat to do and has his plans.
But still, free will above all. If som1 chooses to accept god, jesus cghrist as his savior he shud b saved whatecver the circumstances

One thing that is most often missed, or overlooked, in both Calvinism and Armenianism are several factors: One — God's nature and character; Two — How God designed humanity and even angels; Three — what would have happened if God did not call out to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?

If God did not call out to a lost Humanity, what would the result be?

Next, If God does call out to a lost Humanity, what would the result be?

Since God knows all things, and in His is own personal sovereign initiative calls out to a lost world of humanity, what would be the results?

God certainly knows who are His by how they respond to His call — a person can accept or reject that call. The accepting or rejecting the call is not human-centric because without God's initiative to call no one would ever choose God freely.

There has to be an act on God's part to call out to a lost world. Is this act, an act of man or God? God calls and a person responds accordingly. God knows what the response will be but it is the call from God that saves, not the response.

Without the call there could be no response. Think about it for a while.

What would have happened if God did not call out to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, called out to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob?

How did these men respond to the call? Of course God knows everything before anyone is born and has done anything bad or good, God is God. From this superior knowledge He can shape and mold [potter and clay] each of us as He wills because He simply decided to call out to each of us which in turn engages God's design within us — the ability to think and reason independently. He knows all, He sees all, God is all powerful, etc. He knows our thoughts from afar off.

What displays an all powerful nature: Governing the universe as a divine puppeteer or being able to rule a universe of independent minded beings and is also absolutely able to carry out His plans and purposes midst these?

How did God design the heart? Anyways — this is best discovered on your own by exploring the questions poses above.

You can ask questions about this and read more on my Blog if you like at:

http://heavenhellpolitics.blogspot.com/ ... q-and.html

In the archive listed, see last answer [nuumber 6] to 'Dan the Man' regarding this very issue.
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[Felgar]

I must introduce myself B.W. As a result of life circumstances my participation in this board dropped off dramatically at about the same time that you joined up. Though I'm still far too overwhelmed to participate heavily, the recent moderator changes have at least led me to lurk for a while.

Anyways, I personally find great wisdom in this response and this line of thought (please take note madscientist; I feel it should be re-quoted for truth):

God certainly knows who are His by how they respond to His call — a person can accept or reject that call. The accepting or rejecting the call is not human-centric because without God's initiative to call no one would ever choose God freely.

There has to be an act on God's part to call out to a lost world. Is this act, an act of man or God? God calls and a person responds accordingly. God knows what the response will be but it is the call from God that saves, not the response.

Additionally from the blog, the concept is explored a little more in-depth. I find these items particularly telling:

God engages the human heart by His calling out and calling forth which engages our ability to reason on what course of action one should take in response to God's call.

God knows everything. He foreknew the need to call as well as how one will freely respond to this call before anyone does good or evil, and before one is ever born. With this superior knowledge, God can place us all in our era of time, where we live, etc, as He see best. He knows before hand who will be the best for whatever job He wants done; thus, God can make it so without any violation to the design of the heart.

...

After all, it is His call of salvation, call of purpose, call of destiny, call of life. We all, saint, sinner, unbeliever, believer, still must accept or reject that call. God is not enslaved to our choices: Not at all. He calls, we respond. It is that simple.

I gather from those statements that you also feel that our 'free-will' does extend to our salvation, in that God does give us the choice whether or not to believe in and follow Him. And in my mind it is God's omniscience and esspecially God's call that are misconstrued by Calvinists and thus leads to what I believe is a flawed understanding.

In light of this, I'm wondering if you've spent any time debating with our resident Calvinist, Puritan Lad. If you've done so to your own satisfaction in the past 5 months or so then please direct me to the appropriate discussion. If not, I'd like to draw your attention to this thread: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... c&start=15 and in particular my own post at the bottom of that second page which then links to an older discussion about the same issue that I had with Puritan quite a while back, found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... php?t=1037 Much of what I was trying to say is laid out in that thread.

I think if you'll read that, though there may be subtle differences, you and I are mostly in agreement. But mainly I'm hoping that you might find the time to fortify your position against Puritan's with very solid scriptural support.

Well met BW, and thanks for your participation.

[B. W.]

I must introduce myself B.W. As a result of life circumstances my participation in this board dropped off dramatically at about the same time that you joined up. Though I'm still far too overwhelmed to participate heavily, the recent moderator changes have at least led me to lurk for a while.

Anyways, I personally find great wisdom in this response and this line of thought (please take note madscientist; I feel it should be re-quoted for truth):

In light of this, I'm wondering if you've spent any time debating with our resident Calvinist, Puritan Lad. If you've done so to your own satisfaction in the past 5 months or so then please direct me to the appropriate discussion. If not, I'd like to draw your attention to this thread: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... c&start=15 and in particular my own post at the bottom of that second page which then links to an older discussion about the same issue that I had with Puritan quite a while back, found here: http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... php?t=1037 Much of what I was trying to say is laid out in that thread.

I think if you'll read that, though there may be subtle differences, you and I are mostly in agreement. But mainly I'm hoping that you might find the time to fortify your position against Puritan's with very solid scriptural support.

Well met BW, and thanks for your participation.

No — I have not debated PL, I respect him and his views. He is a good Christian man and sincere. I admire that. What I am trying to point out is the importance of the Call of God to lost humanity in any manner a Sovereign God so calls. What both Calvinist and Armenianism thought does is to confuse people concerning God's nature and Character.

Here, lets look at some scriptural evidence for what I am pointing out.

Psalms 9:15-16 states this: “16 The LORD is known by his justice; the wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands.” NIV

The Lord is known by his Justice. God's Justice is equitable, righteous and way beyond human concepts of Justice. We can gain a glimpse of God's Justice, but mere words just cannot adequately explain it.

God is known by His Justice. Both Calvinist and Armenianism thought interpret God's Justice in a human-centric fashion. His Justice is deeper than their definitions limit it to be. According to bible in the passage quoted, we know the Lord by His Justice. We should spend time studying it as His Justice is part of God's nature and character.

“The wicked are ensnared by the work of their hands” NIV. As you can see, the wicked are ensnared by the work of their-own hands, not God's. If God selected one to be wicked, then this would contradict scripture and prove the bible wrong and in contradictive error as well as violate the concept of God's perfect justice.

Next, Proverbs 16:4 is often misapplied because many they miss what Psalms 9:16 tells us. Basically — God made the wicked for a day of punishment. In other words, God uses anything to restore someone, even the rebuke of the wicked to punish. Isaiah 45:7 states the same thing. Also, God used the wicked to attack ancient Israel and oppress in order to restore the ancient Israelite nation back to serve God. That is what Proverbs 16:4-5 really teaches. God creates the punishment of the wicked for a day of disaster — to restore the righteous. Note Verse 5 in direct context with this line of thought. All things do work together for good for those that love God.

Next, Look at Proverbs 16:1-7. It reveals much:

“1 The preparations of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD.
2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes; But the LORD weighs the spirits.
3 Commit your works to the LORD, and your thoughts will be established.
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
5 Everyone proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD; though they join forces, none will go unpunished.
6 In mercy and truth Atonement is provided for iniquity; and by the fear of the LORD one departs from evil.
7 When a man's ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.” NKJV

What belongs to man? What does God's Justice do [the LORD weighs the spirits]?

Proverbs 16:1-2, “1The plans of the mind and orderly thinking belong to man, but from the Lord comes the [wise] answer of the tongue. 2All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the spirits (the thoughts and intents of the heart).” Amplified Bible.

As you can see, it is not Human choice that God foresees in the future that saves nor is it an arbitrary selection. Rather it is God calling out to humanity that saves. God's Sovereign initiative engages the design of the Human heart as Psalms 33:13-18 reveals and Jeremiah 1:4-9 eludes too.

God cannot help but know everything, He knows before hand who will respond and who will not accept His call. Thus, He can use us as He wills. Remember, it is His call, His initiative that calls out or calls people out of darkness into His glorious light. He knows who will accept His call and who will not. Those that accept are shaped and molded as Galatians 4:19 states. Those that do not - well, you know that answer.

Note what Isaiah 1:18-20 says. Why would God want to reason with us if reason was not an option?
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[Felgar]

Without nitpicking, I certainly agree with the idea being presented throughout your post BW. Thanks for the elaboration though.

I think what I was really trying to say was misconstrued. I'll try again.

I'm saying that you seem to have a very good scriptural foundation for your views, and much of your line of thinking falls nicely in line with my own. Therefore I would be very interested in hearing your views on various matters of theology such as OSAS, Free Grace vs Lordship, the relationship between justification and sanctification, etc. It seems that on some of these issues you've remained completely silent though I expect you have a well-formed opinion on the matters, which is likely strongly supported by scripture. If you're comfortable with sharing those views I'd very appreciate hearing them.

On the other hand, if you inentionally keep out of those discussions due to a personal conviction that it is more important to maintain harmony and focus on the very core of Christian faith, then I respect that also in which case I shall expect no reponse on them.

Since that last posting I have come across a few other threads that have developed in my absence where Jac and PL have had in-depth discourse. So I feel a lot of the questions that need to be answered have been discussed and answered, regardless of whether consensus was reached... (In other words, since the topics have been addressed there is truly no 'need' to continue debating them)

[B. W.]

.I'm saying that you seem to have a very good scriptural foundation for your views, and much of your line of thinking falls nicely in line with my own. Therefore I would be very interested in hearing your views on various matters of theology such as OSAS, Free Grace vs Lordship, the relationship between justification and sanctification, etc. It seems that on some of these issues you've remained completely silent though I expect you have a well-formed opinion on the matters, which is likely strongly supported by scripture. If you're comfortable with sharing those views I'd very appreciate hearing them.

+++++++++++++

No problem. One reason I remained quiet on the matters mentioned is this: I enjoy reading others opinions! I find this the best way to learn.

Regarding Once Save Always Saved, I defer to Romans 8:33-39 and concur with it. You cannot be any plainer or more forceful than Paul's own words on the matter. Nothing can separate you from the Love of Christ for His Elect. The problem many have with election and OSAS is how God elects. The process used to elect revolves around God calling. What is the call other than a simple question summed up in this statement — choose whom you will serve?

Likewise the bible has scriptural supports for both the Calvinist and Armenian thought concerning limited atonement. It is sad that you cannot point anything out to either side. If you try, you will be categorized as either a Calvinist or Armenian. There is absolutely no middle ground. Romans 14:1-12 addresses allegorically what is going on here, to our shame! In fact, if both sides would just explore how God chooses, why God chooses, and how we were designed by God, both sides could discover an answer to the debate.

The reason I remain quiet on these matters is that I would not be allowed to show the why and the hows without being wrongfully categorized and labeled. Now that you asked me directly, I will attempt to explain.

Therefore, let us explore how God chooses, why God chooses, and how God designed us in order to understand OSAS and Election. Later, from this we can discuss atonement if time permits, or continue later on.

Now, what does the word elect and election mean in Greek? —The various definitions and usages suggest — to be called out in various ways and means. Also, many fail to note how the Old Testament uses the words 'choose' and 'chosen' and how these correlate to elect and election in the New Testament thus make election arbitrary and appear cruel. Let's continue…

God calls out to humanity to chose — Deuteronomy 30:16-20, Joshua 24:15, Job 34:33, Isaiah 66:3-6, Ezekiel 18:23and even in Proverbs 1:20-33 God's wisdom calls for a human decision. Even though God already knows our answer, He designed us to choose for a certain reason and that is for serviceability. He designed us to respond for service.

God chooses someone or even a people for serviceability rather than blind arbitrariness as the Theological Word Book of the Old Testament defines this on page100 word number 231. For example: Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 7:5-10, I Samuel 2:28, Isaiah 44:2 are just a few illustrations of electing for service and task. Note the New Testament examples as well — Ephesians 1: 4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:4-9. God calls out to everyone, the call or test of service: some accept, while others reject.

Does the bible teach that God test the heart? 1 Chronicles 29:17, Psalm 7:9, Psalms 11:4-5, Proverbs 17:3, Jeremiah 17:10, Jeremiah 20:12. Why would God bother to try the heart if election was arbitrary and not for service?

The question is; how does God choose one for service? The answer is straightforward; God makes it simple. We make it complex. God asks a question that forces a response. Being God, He already knows the answer and from that foreknown answer can shape you and I for service as He wills.

This is where the confusion arises. Since God asks, is the answer from a person considered a “Will” or as how a person 'Runneth? Or is it just a simple reply to God's call which proves God nature and character? Note: without this call, no one could respond.

It is not a 'Will' because without God calling out to us, we never will choose God. Our 'Will, resolve, intents' are contrary to God as is our course, race, plans of life. God has to show us, demonstrate mercy, call to us. He does so through Christ sacrifice and resurrection. Isaiah 1:18

It is Him who calls us out. It is God's call, His question that engages us to independently respond in order to try our heart. God's demonstration of mercy solicits an answer from us. An answer God already knows. Since God designed the heart, He designed us to respond to His call. It is not man's will or how man runneth but God's call that engages how He designed us. It remains a work of God. He designed it to happen this way.

To understand this more, you need to know why we are here on this planet. This actually answers why and how God elects, chooses, and makes chosen.

The hard part of the debate is this, understanding why were we created? Bible states in Revelations 4:11, “All things were created for Thy Pleasure.” KJV Pleasure is a key word here which denotes God's wishes, wills, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure, purpose, design, decrees, in other words it is why God creates and why is stated below.

Listen: we exist solely for God's pleasure. What is that? God, for whatever reasons known only to Him, makes His nature and Character known for His pleasure and purpose. How can God 'love' if none existed to love? How can God be Righteous, Just, Merciful, if there were none to demonstrate this too? How can God prove He is equitable, fair, and exercises justice if none exist for this purpose?

People may find a great distaste in this but should the pot complain to the potter — you made me thus? I find great awe and respect for God for this and thank Him for making me, for His good pleasure. In this I discover my calling and election sure. Praise the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ forever! In Him we live, move and have our being! Without God we would not be. This is most liberating doctrine — we exist for God's good pleasure! Not ours. Amen! Truly a call to service - whom will you serve?

God made us designed us with an ability to think and reason independently. This proves God is fair, righteous, just, perfect as well as proves He is all powerful. Think of it for a moment: to be all powerful entails being able to rule the universe of free thinkers and still carry out His will for His Good pleasure.

If not, then that is not a living example of being all powerful as God could not rule and carry out his plans and thus really not be 'all powerful.' God would need to be a divine puppeteer instead, which He is not. He is Sovereign and rules all powerfully without strings. Think on this for a while. Ah, God's good pleasure is so liberating!

Therefore, God knows all things about a person before they are born. He made the clay before the pot. He knows that to be fair, He needs to call into service. Without this call, none would be able to respond and this would be contrary to God's nature and character. This would, in essence, violate God's nature and good pleasure. God cannot deny himself. Also, God cannot create sin.

Sin is found in the heart and belongs to the creature. The creature is offered a test of service. This exhibits God fairness and rightness and justice. God knows the answer of the creature before time but sees the need to still ask the question to display His full character to none other than Himself. [Thank God, You are fair and righteous! We exist truly for thy good pleasure! Amen!]

It is here that the debate of election resides. God knows beforehand what service a person can be to Him and molds one for that service by his calling out to all humanity something like this: “choose this day whom you serve… I grant mercy and forgiveness of sins… Come all ye that are heavy and burden and you will find rest for your souls… You are my servants if you follow me… You must be born again to enter the kingdom…”

God chose to call out to humanity with a question that test ones heart which seeks those who will serve God. He asks the question. The response is our own. He designed us that way, which proves to Himself He is all that He is. It is His design — He designed the choice by usage of His Call. Think on it for awhile. Truly the Lord God is all powerful and greatly to be praised!

Who will keep their word to God? Only God knows. He truly seeks those whom are lost and draws them to Himself by use of His call, His question, John 10:14-18, John 18:37 and knows solely because of His question, whom will serve Him and who will not. Chaff and wheat sorted. Wheat and the tares sorted. Without this manner of call, none would be able to serve God. Thus God can appoint based on superior foreknowing John 15:16.

If for God, then for God you will serve. If for self, another god, etc, then??? God needs to call out to us. He selects foreknowing what service they can be to Himself, for His good pleasure both the bad and the good. He shapes all according to a superior foreknowing of whom they'll serve after having been called to respond Matthew 22:1-14. Yes, God truly test the reigns of the heart in a righteous and just and fair manner which absolves Him of creating sin.

Therefore the elect are those that respond to His Calling Out and are thus Born Again. God calls to everyone, not some, not to a few, but to all. Why, to prove His nature is just. If not, then God is not just. We were created for His good pleasure, remember?

Also at the same time, He came to save his called out ones — His elect simply because he knows who they are beforehand. Two sets of scriptures say the same thing all in light of God's call and how he designed us to freely respond to that call. If God remained silent — what then? Praise the Lord He calls and designed us 'awesomely and wonderfully made'.

Not all will answer that call to service but will reject it, freely - Isaiah 1:18-20. Those God foreknew 1 Peter 1:2-25 would serve Him, serve because of God's call to service is heard and understood. He elects and nothing shall separate you from God. You will never lose your salvation.

However, God test and refines the heart. God knows who are His and those that are His are to do what? Colossians 3:1-17, Ephesians 5:1-22, Galatians 5:16-25, Romans 12:1-21, Romans 15:1-13. It is a shame we in the church world fail so often to teach and help new believers understand and endure the roller coaster ride of faith and sanctification.

Matthew 13:18-23 those that hear and understand the call are those elected for service and those that do not, have elected their own lot. This is fair and God's good pleasure is made known and proven.

Are you pressing on? Philippians 3:14-18. Do you hear God's call and understand what it is you are to do yet? You will never lose your salvation because you were called. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Do you understand? Do you hear? God is calling. What is your answer?

Remember the pot is made of clay. The clay is seldom mentioned in the debate, only the vessels, never the clay. We are all made of clay. God made the clay. What is the property of clay? It is a substance that can be shaped, molded, and sent into the kiln's fire. God knows more about what's in the clay than we do. With this superior foreknowledge, the clay of the heart is formed and refined. Amen.
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