Evidence for God from Science

some contraception does kill embryos; in those cases it's murder.

i think God does create evil now :

Isaiah 45:7

i form the light, and create darkness: i make peace, and create evil: i the lord do all things.

The meaning of "and create evil" in this passage is puzzling on face value, but the evil referred to here is not moral evil, but the perceived evil of punishment for sin.

kateliz wrote: you conclude that God instigated the invention of these devices.

No, God didn't instigate it; man did. Also, most contraception only prevents pregnancy. Congratulations. You misinterpreted what was stated again.

okay. that was kind of scary. i was wondering about Him after that.

God cannot create evil, but He can allow it. And who are we to say anything if He does so for a reason other than "free-will"? Not to get off-topic or anything!

But still, who here will argue, from their own opinions, not just being a devil's advocate, that God won't honor faith that believes He can take control over your own child's conception? We'd all agree He's capable of doing so. Will anyone claim that God would absolutely not do such a thing for one of His trusting Children? And if no one would be willing to argue this, why would it not be a better method than using contraceptives? And if it would be a better method, why not prefer it for those with the faith for it? I see no one preferring this method except for those who believe that contraceptives are not such a good thing.

would the "pull-out" method suffice? just not doing anything is too "risky." that or condoms seems safe.

kateliz wrote:God cannot create evil, but He can allow it.

You finally got it.

Prodigal Son wrote:would the "pull-out" method suffice? just not doing anything is too "risky." that or condoms seems safe.

No, because pulling out has been medically proven to be ineffective despite ignorant perceptions about its effectiveness.
Condoms aren't fail-safe either. Too bad liberals don't understand that the best solution is abstinence or monogamous marriages.

well, condoms are about 98% effective. i don't really know how that compares to every other form of birth control, but i don't think any of them are 100% effective, so we need to make a choice by weighing all the pros and cons of each method. for women, there is also the issue that certain methods might cause hormonal and other side-effects as well.

the pull-out method is about 80% effective. still better than nothing.

"Too bad liberals don't understand that the best solution is abstinence or monogamous marriages."

I really don't think this is the argument they would make. I would hope that everyone knows the only surefire way not to become pregnant is not to have sex. The problem arises when someone decides they are going to have sex reagrdless of the risks. If they know nothing of prevention, they will be more likely to become pregnant or cause a pregnancy. The church, in my opinion, doesn't really have a good answer for those who decide they are going to have sex. I'd be happy to hear otherwise.

ocho wrote:You finally got it.

I got that years ago, and I'm surprised you didn't recognize my belief in that long ago.

Prodigal wrote:would the "pull-out" method suffice? just not doing anything is too "risky." that or condoms seems safe.

I really don't think that would be God's chosen method! If He did want a similar method, men would be able to control whether they ejaculate or not. Now, that would be just too convenient if we wanted to ignore one of the main reasons for sex. God made sure not to do it that way for very wise reasons, so no, I don't believe He'd support that.

As for no contraception being "risky," that's only if you don't trust God to control conception. But without that trust, just like salvation, God's power in it becomes, (almost,) null and void, which He set up like that on purpose. He, although not allowing anything to happen against His ultimate gameplan, will allow things to get "hairy" if you don't trust Him to do what He says He'll do for you.

I trust God, as I know I can and should, to supply my every need. He, in response to that trust and faith, provides according to my current spiritual condition. When I rebel, and I know I am, He witholds to let me know something in my relationship with Him isn't right and needs immediate fixing.

Just yesterday morning He gave me the wonderful gift of a new job. Last week I got half of the picture, and this week I got the other half. He told me He had something up His sleeves, and He pulled them out! If I hadn't trusted God to provide, there's no way I could've been able to actively wait for Him to provide for me like that. No looking in the newspapers, just waiting on God in trust and faith in His Word. That's the way He works with His Children. That's the way He ultimately wants to work with us regarding conception.

well, condoms are about 98% effective.
i don't really know how that compares to every other form of birth control, but i don't think any of them are 100% effective, so we need to make a choice by weighing all the pros and cons of each method. for women, there is also the issue that certain methods might cause hormonal and other side-effects as well.
the pull-out method is about 80% effective. still better than nothing.

Not exactly. Condoms have a maximum effectiveness rate of around 98% in preventing pregnancy if used properly and if they don't break (same with "pulling out" except around 80 instead of 98 although presemen decreases the effectiveness a lot), which means the average rates are lower. That's why women are advised to do their part as well. Vasectomies and tubal ligations are probably the most effective.

chocloateonly wrote: I really don't think this is the argument they would make. I would hope that everyone knows the only surefire way not to become pregnant is not to have sex. The problem arises when someone decides they are going to have sex reagrdless of the risks. If they know nothing of prevention, they will be more likely to become pregnant or cause a pregnancy. The church, in my opinion, doesn't really have a good answer for those who decide they are going to have sex. I'd be happy to hear otherwise.

The church is doing its part by encouraging abstinence until marital relations.

that's what about means--not exactly.

Ya know, it just struck me how much of an unholy mutilation those surgeries are. Put God in a 1" square box and then beat Him with a hammer, that's what that does. Unless, of course, there's an honest medical reason to do so.

that's what about means--not exactly.

I had to illustrate what you said in your post.

kateliz wrote:Ya know, it just struck me how much of an unholy mutilation those surgeries are. Put God in a 1" square box and then beat Him with a hammer, that's what that does. Unless, of course, there's an honest medical reason to do so.

What surgeries are you referring to?

um, no you didn't.