Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:If the unsaved world can't see any difference in the 'believer' -- why Should they 'want' what we 'have'. Our lives are Supposed to Attract people to Christ / the Father. Why Should they be seeing the 'same old' in the New Creature in Christ.

I agree that our lives are supposed to attract people to Christ. And a believer should produce good works. But, the difference between "should", and "must", is crucial to seeing that works aren't necessary for salvation, but should happen when a believer is living by the spirit.

I'm Not talking about 'works' salvation. And, yes, That's what I'm talking about -- ' when a believer is living by the Spirit." We're talking about the 'love, joy, peace , long-suffering, etc. that are listed as Fruits of the Spirit.

crochet1949 wrote:

RickD wrote:

crochet1949 wrote:If the unsaved world can't see any difference in the 'believer' -- why Should they 'want' what we 'have'. Our lives are Supposed to Attract people to Christ / the Father. Why Should they be seeing the 'same old' in the New Creature in Christ.

I agree that our lives are supposed to attract people to Christ. And a believer should produce good works. But, the difference between "should", and "must", is crucial to seeing that works aren't necessary for salvation, but should happen when a believer is living by the spirit.

I'm Not talking about 'works' salvation. And, yes, That's what I'm talking about -- ' when a believer is living by the Spirit." We're talking about the 'love, joy, peace , long-suffering, etc. that are listed as Fruits of the Spirit.

Crochet,

You said:

If there's No change -- then the Holy Spirit has Not come to indwell that person.

Which one is it then?

When a person who is saved, lives by the spirit, he will produce fruit?

Or,

All people who are saved must produce good fruit?

Crochet,

Where does Galatians 5 say a saved person will produce the fruit of the Spirit?

Nessa wrote:I believe its not so much about what you do but rather what or whom you ultimately desire.

Paul said I do what I don't want to do and leave undone the things I want to do

You cant just assume that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a duck.

A white washed tomb can look pretty good on the outside but is filled with death on the inside.

What a person is filled with -- Will manifest itself through words / actions. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in a person's life Will show through.

Jac3510 wrote:Crochet,

Where does Galatians 5 say a saved person will produce the fruit of the Spirit?

The verse 22 reads "but the fruit of the Spirit IS." It is Assuming that those things Will present themselves. Because the Holy Spirit Is indwelling every believer -- those fruits will be evident in them.

Doesn't follow. What makes you think that all believers bear the fruit of the Spirit? I have lots of reasons in Galatians that say not all believers do--in fact, the point of Galatians is that not all believers bear the fruit of the Spirit, and the book explains why.

But all of that is really beside the point. You are making the claim that all true believers produce the fruit of the Spirit. Where does the text say that?

Around and around we go again and again...

Let's see...

Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another. NASB

So what I am hearing folks say is this: Yes, we are to walk by the Spirit, yet, it is okay not to be changed by the Holy Spirit and continue to live according to the flesh, if this is so, then how come it says those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God?
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RickD and Nessa y'all are both missing the point. Paul was saying that he was struggling with sin. That he didn't wont to do it, and that even though he tried to not sin. He was to week and end up sinning in the end. Then he said how he over came this problem it was through the power of God. It wasn't that he got the power of God then it was ok for him to sin. That would leave him in the same problem he was in in the first place. Him trying not to sin because he loved God but not being able to keep from sinning in the end.

The power of God was the strength to overcome sin not the power to sin.

As someone who does not believe in osas even I know that Christians will struggle with sin, But all Christians will not wont to sin, big difference.

How do I know that Paul was given the power to not sin? The problem was not that he was trying to stay saved but that he was trying to please God which all Christians will wont to do. Now if God just gave him the knowledge that it was ok to sin then that would not fix the problem, because the struggle wasn't if sin was ok or not but that he love God and was trying not to sin but kept messing up. So the only way to fix this problem was to give Paul the power to overcome sin. So in the end he didn't have the sin problem any more. He was able to live above sin through the power of God.

That is what those verses are saying.

Sin becomes a choice for a Christian. One can choose to sin or not choose to sin because of the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit at work within the being of those born again.

Choosing to sin will not cause one to lose his or her salvation but rather earns many trips to God's Woodshed (Hebrews 12:5,6,7,8,9,10,11 explains what I mean by God's woodshed) so one learns that God really loves them and will not let them go. Someone truly born again learns from the woodshed experience to live the 1 John 1:9 way in the fullest sense of its clearly intended meaning. With that, in due time we do attain the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our live invarying degrees of intensity.

It is the fruit of the Holy Spirit, not fruits of...

The indwelling Holy Spirit will produce agape, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control within a Christian that is self evident and seen, albeit, most likely after many trips to the woodshed.

However, one who has no evidence of change and continues to practice immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, adultery, effeminateness, homosexuality, thievery, covetousness, reviling, swindling (note 1 Co 6:9,10,11,12) are not saved and never were. They cannot lose what they never had to begin with.

A true born again person will show evidence of change of heart, mind, will, and direction in his or her life. We might not detect the change right away but the person knows and so does God. No one can keep themselves saved or work hard to stay saved saved as that leads one very quickly to God's woodshed.

We, as followers of Jesus, are to live knowing that sin is now a choice and not a lifestyle. That we can make right choices more often than not making right choices. In fact, one can and will discover in time on this planet that they do indeed sin less and less. A christian is not a slave to sin anymore, it is a lifestyle learning to overcome sin by reliance upon solely God's grace that empowers the heart; thus we learn faithfulness to God and what this means.

Some folks separate the idea of sanctification as being apart and separate from one's salvation. However, that is not the case at all. God will not let his people go and salvation also involves deliverance wrought by sanctification. Sanctification is part of ones salvation experience. Fellow Christians will argue about this but the fact remains, God will change a person.

With this, objectors point to the thief on the cross and say he never had a sanctifying experience. My answer is how do you know that he did not? Jesus knows what is in the heart of all men and women. If one enters by means of a deathbed experience into God's Kingdom, he or she attain the shortcut version of sanctification to live in the heavenly land midst the fruit of the holy Spirit.

Jac brought out in one of his post John chapter Two concerting John 2:11 and John 2:23,24,25 and did an excellent job explaining these points between two kinds of believers. Therefore most folks will not be saved by deathbed conversions but like them are saved by life God's altering grace alone. Such life altering experience of God's grace is not birthed intellectually alone. There is more to it that intellectual agreement alone. It is a mysterious work of God to be sure. God knows who are his own. Let God be God and let us stop playing God and exalting our intellect as the sole arbiter of truth.
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I was waking up this morning with several thoughts concerning 'this' subject. I was all set to expound when I found these last three posts. Very well put. The only part I question is the very last sentence or two. It IS true that God Does know those who are His own. We are Not supposed to 'play God' -- being judgmental of others. But - as has been noted -- there Needs to be evidence of salvation in a person's life --if said person continues to live just like he did Before making a verbal commitment to being a Christian -- then there would be reason to question their commitment. There should at least be evidence of Trying to quite 'whatever' Or evidence of desire TO do that which is pleasing to God. Maybe something like a pianist who'd really been into rock music and accepts Christ and his interest turns to playing Gospel music instead and when questioned about his change in music interests, he attributes it to God entering his life.

And the thief on the cross -- the one Did acknowledge Jesus Christ -- he was told by Him on that cross as they were both dying that that very day -- the man would be with Him in Paradise.

Chapter 5 vs 17 "For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. And the following verses (19) list those activities which the sinful nature takes part in and those who do those things on a regular basis with no remorse Will Not inherit the kingdom of God. Some of those activities we see all around us and some not so much but are getting more and more prevalent. We end up getting complacent / we rationalize what we see and end up doing ourselves to some extent.

So maybe we need to wake up to what Scripture is Trying to tell us.

I half way agree with b. w. but not totally .

First sinners and Christians can both choose to sin or not to sin. God or the devil nether one makes anyone sin. It is our choice to sin. Sinners do not have the power to overcome the world but they do have the choice to sin or not. When I was a sinner I could still choose to lie to someone or not, I could choose to still or not, I could choose to kill or not ect.... I was not forced to do any of them. The only thing was I didn't care if I sinned and even if I did care I didn't have the power to live above it, but I stile had the choice and I didn't sin every time the choice came up.

Christians are not given the choice to sin that isn't power at all. We already had the choice we just didn't have the power to make the right choices all the time.

think about it every time someone asked you if you did this or that before you were saved you didn't always lie some times to choose to tell the truth.

Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments.

That was what Paul was facing He loved God and was fighting against sin not to stay saved but because he love Jesus, but he kept messing up. That was the struggle. Then he said how he overcame that struggle. He said it was through the power of God. If the power of God was just the power to choose then he would stile be in the same problem he was in in the first place. It wasn't that he didn't have the power to choose but that he loved Jesus and didn't wont to sin. That was the struggle.

So to get him out of the struggle he was in, the power has to be the power to overcome sin in our lives. Because the struggle was that he love Jesus and because he did he wonted to live right, but kept messing up. Then he was give power to stop this struggle he was having in his life because he loved Jesus. that power was the power of God to overcome sin.

Crochet, let me ask my question a different way:

Do ALL apple trees bear apples, or are there some apple trees that, by some defect, bear no apples at all. I grant that no apple tree bears, say, pears or oranges. But would you agree that there are barren apple trees?

Jac3510 wrote:Crochet, let me ask my question a different way:

Do ALL apple trees bear apples, or are there some apple trees that, by some defect, bear no apples at all. I grant that no apple tree bears, say, pears or oranges. But would you agree that there are barren apple trees?

Sorry -- I'm the wrong person to ask that to. I'm not a 'tree' person in the slightest. I Have heard that some 'apple' trees don't always bear very good apples -- depends on spraying, etc.

There Are people who Do accept Christ as personal Savior and don't experience much growth for whatever reason. And maybe they Do get into trouble / live lives that are Not pleasing to God and end up being a very poor example for others. Those people Have been known to be taken home 'sooner' / maybe a sudden illness / a single-car accident/whatever. And it's been apparent to those who know the person -- they grieve that their life was taken by God so as not to continue being a really poor Christian example for others to mistakenly follow. It would have been So Much Better for the person to have been willing to live a positive life. But they are as 'saved' and in heaven as the most Godly person ever on this earth.

Regarding the barren apple trees -- chances are that the grower found a non-producer to be worthy of getting chopped down or pruned down to nothingness in effort for New growth to be a better producer.

You do not bear fruit then in time you will be cut down. The bible says God gives us space to repent be if we do not the we will be cut down. That is why I do not believe osas.


Luk 13:6  He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 
Luk 13:7  Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 
Luk 13:8  And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 
Luk 13:9  And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. 

Jpbg,

Since you don't believe in OSAS, let me ask you a direct question.

In your theology, what must a Christian do to remain saved, once he trusts in Christ, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Please answer specifically.