Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:OK, RESET: Back to the Trinity.

I don't know what is taught less well across the Church, the concept of the Trinity of God, or just merely understandings about the Holy Spirit. And where oh WHERE were such sermons as I was growing up?

If you grew up in the south, most likely, you attended some variation of a Pentecostal or charismatic church, where they were too busy speaking fake tongues gibberish, and begging for money, to give a hoot about proper doctrine.

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:OK, RESET: Back to the Trinity.

I don't know what is taught less well across the Church, the concept of the Trinity of God, or just merely understandings about the Holy Spirit. And where oh WHERE were such sermons as I was growing up?

If you grew up in the south, most likely, you attended some variation of a Pentecostal or charismatic church, where they were too busy speaking fake tongues gibberish, and begging for money, to give a hoot about proper doctrine.

if you grew up in the south? was that a slam Rick?

jenna wrote:this actually makes sense in a way. BUT. in order to be born as human, Christ would have had to change His very nature (from Being to human being) in order to be able to die.

I know both K and Byblos addressed this some, but then the thread got of course a bit. I really do think this is really a huge part of the issue, jenna. Remember when I said that the history of how we got to the Trinity is important? Popular myths about importing pagan ideas notwithstanding (as they're only myths), the real way the church fathers got to the Trinity was through Jesus, and specifically, though questions like this one. By thinking about Him, they came to a set of conclusions that we call the Trinity today.

So to reiterate what was already said to you, Christ did not change His nature in order to be able to die. Nor could He. Just think about it a second. Suppose that God can't die by nature. I assume you agree with that. If God, in becoming a human so that He could die, somehow changed His nature, then He wouldn't be God anymore! He would be some mixture of God and human. He'd be half God and half human, let's say. But then he's neither God nor man. That is the real paganism.

No, we mean it when we say that Jesus was fully God and fully man. He was 100% God and 100% man. But how is that? Actually, that's not too hard. The one Person--God the Son--has (or, to keep up with our earlier argument, just is) one nature already. And that nature is Divine. So God the Son is just that: God. But the incarnation, something came into existence that had not come into existence before: a particular human being named Jesus of Nazareth. The Person had already eternally existed, but the human being, Jesus, had not. Now this human, Jesus, like all humans, had a human nature. That's just what it means to be human! It's to be a thing with a human nature.

And now we have to be careful to avoid one more error, but when we avoid it, the truth becomes much easier to grasp. We need to be sure we do not say that this human person, Jesus of Nazareth, came into existence and then, after that, the Divine Person (God the Son) somehow united with that human person. He wasn't "adopted" nor was He just a "man suit" that the Son wore, so to speak. Rather, what we see is that God the Son, in the human Jesus Christ, took on a human nature. That does not change the divine nature. The divine nature is still that: completely and 100% divine, distinct from the human nature in every way. So both the divine nature and the human nature exist completely as they always did. And just like your human nature is something you--the person Jenna--has, Jesus' human nature was something He--the Person God--has. So while the Son of God was identical with His divine nature, He had a human nature. In scholastic language, He assumed the human nature. But, again, in assuming that nature, He no way changes His eternal, unchanging divine nature.

So now we have a Divine Person with a human nature, which is to say, a human who really is God. Not some demi-god. Really is God. Jesus really can say, "I AM."

So all those things you were asking about--Jesus dying, for instance--He does because He is a human. None of that effects His divine nature. Humans are born and die and have sequential thoughts. God doesn't do any of that. Moreover, Jesus had two wills and two intellects. He had His human will and His divine will; His human intellect and His divine intellect. But there was only one Person, not two. And that, by the way, is that way salvation actually happens at the deepest level. In Christ, the human will and intellect are perfectly subsumed and obedient to the divine will and intellect. The human will and intellect in Christ are completely and 100% free to be in accordance with the divine. So it really is true that Christ reconciled the world to God in His very body! Because as we relate to this man, we therefore relate to this God, who He is, and our humanity thus "reaches" God through the bridge that is Christ's incarnation, His two natures in one Person. And thus we reach the Father, because the Father and the Son are exactly the same essence. The Father and the Son are not merely the same kind of thing, as my wife and I are the same kind of thing. They are literally the same Eternal Essence. So in knowing Christ's humanity, I know Christ's Person; but knowing Christ's Person is knowing His Essence; but knowing His essence is knowing the very essence of the Father. That is, to know Christ is to know the Father. And by that, we are saved.

Rick: If you grew up in the south, most likely, you attended some variation of a Pentecostal or charismatic church, where they were too busy speaking fake tongues gibberish, and begging for money, to give a hoot about proper doctrine.

I grew up in the Midlands of SC. I also went to a very good but large Baptist church. The doctrine was all good. It's just that topics about the Holy Spirit or Trinity seemed sparse. However, as is with most kids, I had a bit of an attention span issue.

I grew up in a major university city, which is also the capital of government. It was and is very Southern but also quite cosmopolitan. While Rick's observation might be of certain parts of Florida, in central SC, of those who attended church, most people were (in the '60s and '70s) were either Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist, or Lutheran - and very few Catholics. Pentecostals, and Charismatics were considered as "fringe" groups, by most (Pentecostals still are). And that was and is farily typical of the cities around the South. However, get out into rural areas and that can be very different. I never encountered Pentecostals until we were invited to a service by a lady that worked with my dad (I was about 13). Loonybins and circus acts come to mind, when recalling that service (we got up and walked out - my mom was really freaked out).

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:OK, RESET: Back to the Trinity.

I don't know what is taught less well across the Church, the concept of the Trinity of God, or just merely understandings about the Holy Spirit. And where oh WHERE were such sermons as I was growing up?

If you grew up in the south, most likely, you attended some variation of a Pentecostal or charismatic church, where they were too busy speaking fake tongues gibberish, and begging for money, to give a hoot about proper doctrine.

I grew up in Iowa -- a big church and Bible was taught - doctrine -- wonderful, heart-felt praying.

Baptist churches -- the only one I went to growing up -- didn't dwell on the Holy Spirit. Eternal security YES. But I think there was a concern about getting into the tongues movement. The 'Holy Rollers'. God / Jesus Christ -- no problem. And I've not personally had a problem with accepting the trinity. The 'how' God became man / all the intricacies of that -- I'm not one to dissect it -- it's enough that it has happened.

Maybe it's the roles Of the Holy Spirit that bothers people. The "IF" salvation has Actually taken place, Then the 'keeping' power Of the Holy Spirit. Too many people see eternal security as a 'now that I'm 'saved' and I Can't loose my salvation, I'm Free to do whatever I want and still end up in heaven. No more fear of loosing heaven and ending up in hell.

To answer your question about Where are all those sermons Now. Well -- how much authority do people Give God's Word these days. Society's 'if it feels good, do it' sort of over-rules Biblical morals / ethics. Pastors' salaries are paid by the congregation. The people hire the pastor. Higher education tends to down-play the Bible. So - how much Bible do people Want to hear these days. People would Rather hear about God's love and heaven. Rather than the Reality of hell.

So, yes, Proper Doctrine.

jenna wrote:

RickD wrote:

Philip wrote:OK, RESET: Back to the Trinity.

I don't know what is taught less well across the Church, the concept of the Trinity of God, or just merely understandings about the Holy Spirit. And where oh WHERE were such sermons as I was growing up?

If you grew up in the south, most likely, you attended some variation of a Pentecostal or charismatic church, where they were too busy speaking fake tongues gibberish, and begging for money, to give a hoot about proper doctrine.

if you grew up in the south? was that a slam Rick?

Rick is a Yankee transplant liven' in the South... an alien amongst aliens...

A Mix of Bostonian dialect and southern drawl...

Kale mixed with collared greens...

Clam chowder midst jambalaya...

Lastly doesn't know where to park his car... since Harvard is so fer awaay...
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B.W." Rick is a Yankee transplant liven' in the South... an alien amongst aliens...

Well, you can take rude, obnoxious, relentlessly sarcastic people out of their Yankeetowns, but ya just can't that stuff out of the Yank, etc.



Oops, gulp, I er, well, I'm married to a - how did this happen - a New England lass. And as long as I keep quiet, we get along just great! Mostly.

How rude!

I've never been this insulted in my life!

***Heads back up north where the smart people live***

That's ok, Rick. It's not your fault - remember, it is God who sets people boundaries. And by His grace, He moved you South. However, your part of Florida just happens to have more than its share of southern Georgia rednecks. Funny, but I have come to realize that there are rednecks EVERYWHERE - they just have differing accents.

What's the difference between a Northeastern redneck and a Southern one? While they will both flimflam you in a skinny minute, the Southern one smiles a lot and often says please, thank you, and likes to call people "buddy." Pretty clever strategy, eh?

RickD wrote:How rude!

I've never been this insulted in my life!

***Heads back up north where the smart people live***

yes, go home ya yankee

I think I'm going to report both of you to the moderating team!

If they don't help me, maybe Brian will know what to do.

Btw, the south WILL NOT rise again.

And y'all can take that to the bank!

L O L -- a sense of humor is So nice these days.

RickD wrote:I think I'm going to report both of you to the moderating team!

If they don't help me, maybe Brian will know what to do.

All you do is suffer in silence. Marriage should have trained you for that.

Btw, the south WILL NOT rise again.

And y'all can take that to the bank!

Hello, election 2016 and the Southern Strategy more generally. IOW, Already did.

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:I think I'm going to report both of you to the moderating team!

If they don't help me, maybe Brian will know what to do.

All you do is suffer in silence. Marriage should have trained you for that.

Btw, the south WILL NOT rise again.

And y'all can take that to the bank!

Hello, election 2016 and the Southern Strategy more generally. IOW, Already did.

Listen here Brian! YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ON MY SIDE!

You don't even have a southern accent!

Are ya'll trying to form some sort of "human trinity" now?! We're supposed to try to figure You guys out since we're not making much headway with the Biblical one? Just wonderin'