Evidence for God from Science

Swimmy wrote:Its starting to look like Fanti's claims are full of crap

Swimmy we won't fully know everything until the peer reviewed results come in.
As far as the guy who wrote the critical review of Fanti's tests and book , his name is gian marco rinaldi and it seems like he probably is some kind of skeptic. He is also skeptical of the illustration of the shroud in the Hungarian pray codex saying it wasnt the shroud even though it had the 4 poker holes and the 3 way herringbone weave of the shroud on the illustration.

Rinaldi doesnt seem like a very unbiased researcher here.
You should do a little digging into this guy.
It seems like joe nickells website also uses some of his skeptical research as well.
You have to understand that anything as explosive as this is going to cause quite a stir as I'm sure that Ray Rogers thermochimica acta paper did in 2005.

I'm in a wait and see mode as far as Fanti's tests as he hasn't even been given a chance to respond yet.

Just did some research on rinaldi and what do you know
It looks like he is a part of a skeptic organization in Italy called cicap . It was tough to find any info on him since its all in Italian .

http://www.cicap.org/new/stampa.php?id=100439

And when we look through the list of researchers who do we find that pops out like a sore thumb but
Luigi Garlaschelli
Whose he you ask?
He's the atheist scientist hired by an atheist organization in Italy that funded his research into attempting the 2009 replication of the shroud, which of course failed to replicate the shroud.

The plot thickens

Is there a summary of the information here? I want to start researching this but I'm not sure where to start

SonofAletheia wrote:Is there a summary of the information here? I want to start researching this but I'm not sure where to start

These should be a good start

http://shroud2000.com/FAQs.html


http://greatshroudofturinfaq.com/


http://shroudfaq.com/

Thanks Swimmy. I'll definitely check those out

Very cool Shroud presentation by Gary Habermas at Biola University:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59xaHJjLfzQ

Here is a link to a page that has three great video presentations on the evidence for the Shroud and it's authenticity.

http://www.performancefilms.co.uk/Preview/preview.html

GB

Here is another great video I found, with more amazing details.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BxmbIGQBX4

I don't know if this has already been posted or not but either way, I saw this a day or so ago. It's a pretty well done five part series on the Shroud. Here are the links.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1AVoSiX8rA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61bG8dKwd5A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v6hVlui6wE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-Je0Piwd0M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Fb84RV0Lyc

Hello everyone, here is very good presentation by photographer, sturp team member and owner of shroud.com's Berry Schwartz on the Shroud. He address many of the frequently asked questions of the Shroud from Christians. It's certainly one of my all time favorite presentations. You can find it here GB:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0N9cMUQ ... e=youtu.be

This is a remarkable video. And while a bit long to keep the attention of many, it's well worth watching in its entirety. Especially fascinating is the very last portion, where Barrie speaks of confronting within himself what he is to make of this Shroud of Christ - as he had come to believe it to be authentic / impossible to fake and that he had been personally used by God to make information about it known to the world. And yet, he's still not a Christian - hasn't come to the point where he can say that Jesus was/is God. But, as he says to those who are greatly distressed over this - who he knows have concerns based in love, "I'm not dead yet."

If it were only a matter of pure logic, examining the Scriptures, realizing that a miraculous, extraordinary historical artifact almost certainly confirms what they say about Jesus' horrific death, burial and resurrection, I think Barrie would believe. But something is holding him back. What is it? I believe it's the necessary action that all rational people, those knowing the incredible validations of a God-built universe, Scripture, prophecy, understandings about Jesus fulfillment of so many things - STILL must make: They must take one hand off of their total reliance on logic and grasp faith with it. Notice I didn't say they need to TOTALLY abandon logic with the other hand. But if logic can point to truth (though not PROVE it as such), and God is THE Truth, then a necessary bridge can exist between them. But every believer must cross that bridge!

But the fact that Barrie believes this Shroud could only have been miraculously and divinely produced, and that he acknowledges that it confirms the Gospel accounts (at least about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection) and yet he hasn't embraced Jesus as God, to me, shows the limits of logic to produce faith. As salvation requires something that goes beyond powerful evidences and pure logic. Faith!

God himself could appear before a person and still they won't believe, no evidence ever can convict a person who doesn't want to be convicted.

But the shroud is surely the most interesting artifact I have ever read about.

This video would be better if it addressed the carbon 14 dating controversy.

Philip wrote:This is a remarkable video. And while a bit long to keep the attention of many, it's well worth watching in its entirety. Especially fascinating is the very last portion, where Barrie speaks of confronting within himself what he is to make of this Shroud of Christ - as he had come to believe it to be authentic / impossible to fake and that he had been personally used by God to make information about it known to the world. And yet, he's still not a Christian - hasn't come to the point where he can say that Jesus was/is God. But, as he says to those who are greatly distressed over this - who he knows have concerns based in love, "I'm not dead yet."

If it were only a matter of pure logic, examining the Scriptures, realizing that a miraculous, extraordinary historical artifact almost certainly confirms what they say about Jesus' horrific death, burial and resurrection, I think Barrie would believe. But something is holding him back. What is it? I believe it's the necessary action that all rational people, those knowing the incredible validations of a God-built universe, Scripture, prophecy, understandings about Jesus fulfillment of so many things - STILL must make: They must take one hand off of their total reliance on logic and grasp faith with it. Notice I didn't say they need to TOTALLY abandon logic with the other hand. But if logic can point to truth (though not PROVE it as such), and God is THE Truth, then a necessary bridge can exist between them. But every believer must cross that bridge!

But the fact that Barrie believes this Shroud could only have been miraculously and divinely produced, and that he acknowledges that it confirms the Gospel accounts (at least about Jesus' death, burial and resurrection) and yet he hasn't embraced Jesus as God, to me, shows the limits of logic to produce faith. As salvation requires something that goes beyond powerful evidences and pure logic. Faith!

Correct Phillip, but just maybe all that is needed for Barry to one day make that final move is just a bunch of prayers from all of us. And I do agree that there should at least have been some mention of the 88 c14 tests, but my guess is that Schwortz has been down that road so many times , though it would have been nice if he had pulled a Ray Rogers thermochimica acta out of his side pocket.

But my main question is , WHY isn't NEHA on this thread

Danieltwotwenty wrote:God himself could appear before a person and still they won't believe, no evidence ever can convict a person who doesn't want to be convicted.

But the shroud is surely the most interesting artifact I have ever read about.

Correct Daniel, but it certainly interesting to see how the shroud has been influential enough in Barry's life to the point that he's been getting very chummy with the Christian community . It's also interesting that Rebecca Jackson was in the back of the room, and she herself was an Orthodox Jew before her research into the shroud and now has come to Christ.
Very interesting indeed.