Evidence for God from Science

bippy123 wrote:

neo-x wrote:

bippy123 wrote:Yes and why can't a transitional creature not be fully formed ?
Is that some kind of law of science that says this ?

I guess someone forgot to tell this to those poor fruit flies that took part of that 80 year failed macroevolution study that produced absolutely nothing of value

I doubt Bippy, that 80 years is enough on any biological scale, and the purpose of the study wasn't to prove macro-evolution. It was to see gene mutations. Infact, some of the results were very interesting and insightful.

It's good to see you post.

Thanks Neo , I'm trying to post here and there in between slot of hours of working
I believe that the biologists in the fruit fly study found a way to accelerate the time of evolution to the equivalent of 1 million years .

I forgot the technique they used but I clearly remember them talking about it .

Michael Behe was recently vindicated when he stated that bacteria that
Formed a resistance to chloroquine needed a minimum of 2 mutations to accomplish this and the odds are 10 to the 40th power based on the number of cells needed for this to happen . And since each year 10 to the 30th bacterial cells are formed even if you count every year since life began your still under the 10 to the 40th mark needed for this to happen .

Behe was totally vindicated on the point that it's extremely unlikely for chloroquine resistance to happen through natural evolution alone .

When he first made this point the talking heads of evolution basically called him a loon . 2 years ago evolutionary biologists themselves vindicated him on this .

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/so ... 87901.html

Recall that the odds against getting two necessary, independent mutations are the multiplied odds for getting each mutation individually. What if a problem arose that required a cluster of mutations that was twice as complicated as a CCC? (Let's call it a double CCC.) For example, what if instead of the several amino acid changes needed for chloroquine resistance in malaria, twice that number were needed? In that case the odds would be that for a CCC times itself. Instead of 1020 cells to solve the evolutionary problem, we would need 1040 cells. Workers at the University of Georgia have estimated that about a billion billion trillion (1030) bacterial cells are formed on the earth each and every year. ... If that number has been the same over the entire several-billion-year history of the world, then throughout the course of history there would have been slightly fewer than 1040 cells, a bit less than we'd expect to need to get a double CCC. The conclusion, then, is that the odds are slightly against even one double CCC showing up by Darwinian processes in the entire course of life on earth.
(Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism, p. 135 (Free Press, 2007).)

Remember neo that Behe isn't the typical iDist . He also believes in common descent .
Next post will show how his critics treated him at first and later on

neo-x wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

neo-x wrote:

bippy123 wrote:Yes and why can't a transitional creature not be fully formed ?
Is that some kind of law of science that says this ?

I guess someone forgot to tell this to those poor fruit flies that took part of that 80 year failed macroevolution study that produced absolutely nothing of value

I doubt Bippy, that 80 years is enough on any biological scale, and the purpose of the study wasn't to prove macro-evolution. It was to see gene mutations. Infact, some of the results were very interesting and insightful.

It's good to see you post.

Thanks Neo , I'm trying to post here and there in between slot of hours of working
I believe that the biologists in the fruit fly study found a way to accelerate the time of evolution to the equivalent of 1 million years .

I forgot the technique they used but I clearly remember them talking about it .

Michael Behe was recently vindicated when he stated that bacteria that
Formed a resistance to chloroquine needed a minimum of 2 mutations to accomplish this and the odds are 10 to the 40th power based on the number of cells needed for this to happen . And since each year 10 to the 30th bacterial cells are formed even if you count every year since life began your still under the 10 to the 40th mark needed for this to happen .

Behe was totally vindicated on the point that it's extremely unlikely for chloroquine resistance to happen through natural evolution alone .

When he first made this point the talking heads of evolution basically called him a loon . 2 years ago evolutionary biologists themselves vindicated him on this .

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/07/so ... 87901.html

Recall that the odds against getting two necessary, independent mutations are the multiplied odds for getting each mutation individually. What if a problem arose that required a cluster of mutations that was twice as complicated as a CCC? (Let's call it a double CCC.) For example, what if instead of the several amino acid changes needed for chloroquine resistance in malaria, twice that number were needed? In that case the odds would be that for a CCC times itself. Instead of 1020 cells to solve the evolutionary problem, we would need 1040 cells. Workers at the University of Georgia have estimated that about a billion billion trillion (1030) bacterial cells are formed on the earth each and every year. ... If that number has been the same over the entire several-billion-year history of the world, then throughout the course of history there would have been slightly fewer than 1040 cells, a bit less than we'd expect to need to get a double CCC. The conclusion, then, is that the odds are slightly against even one double CCC showing up by Darwinian processes in the entire course of life on earth.
(Michael Behe, The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism, p. 135 (Free Press, 2007).)

Remember neo that Behe isn't the typical iDist . He also believes in common descent .
Next post will show how his critics treated him at first and later on

I appreciate the nuanced point Bippy. But you also have to look at other things. For example, whale evolution and shark evolution are totally different. Sharks have evolved little over 400 million years whereas the whales have.

Even the evolution of eyes in various forms of earth have evolved independently.

And I also think that the kind of ID Behe proposes might serve a scientific notion but it doesn't satisfy a theological one. Why should God intervene in such minute cases, not merely to hold the illusion of ID true? I hope not. It just defeats the whole point of creation in the first place. It is so inconsequential that I really don't see the significance of it anymore.

hughfarey wrote:Juggling probability is always a little tricky, and Behe's calculations regarding chloroquine resistance in malarial parasites are far from indisputable. He takes as his foundation a passage from Nicholas J. White "Antimalarial Drug Resistance", which needs quoting for a proper understanding of the numbers. The relevant paragraph reads:

"Resistance to chloroquine in P. falciparum has arisen spontaneously less than ten times in the past fifty years. This suggests that the per-parasite probability of developing resistance de novo is on the order of 1 in 10^20 parasite multiplications. [...] To put this in context, an adult with approximately 2% parasitemia has 10^12 parasites in his or her body."

Behe contends that this is impossible by random mutation. From the evolutionnews article cited: "Whatever molecular mechanisms may be behind a CCC, empirical data showed that 10^20 cells are required in order to produce one. Behe pointed out that if a trait required the molecular equivalent of two CCC's before providing any advantage, then that would pose major problems for Darwinian evolution." By "major problems", he really means total collapse.

But wait a minute - where does Behe get his "empirical data [showing] that 10^20 cells are required in order to produce one [single mutation]"? Nicholas White says that 10^20 cell multiplications are required to produce chloroquine resistance, however many mutations are required. Rather than claiming that two mutations require 10^20 squared (10^40), Behe should surely be claiming, from this empirical evidence, that each one requires 10^20 square-rooted (10^10), which is much less absurd, given that there about 10^18 parasites about at any one time.

What's more, Behe insists on simultaneity, but that's unjustified. If each mutation has no effect on reproductive success individually, then they would both multiply unnoticed, perhaps over many years, so that there was a huge pool of individuals susceptible to the second, operative mutation when it occurred.

Finally, Behe's few quantified examples of "intelligent design" seem somewhat random to me. What intelligence requires the spontaneous resistance of P. falciparium to chloroquine ten times in fifty years?