Seriously, can a moderator please tell me how much longer we're supposed to tolerate this? The outright hypocrisy alone is simply astounding.Audie wrote:Why not speak to / of people actually present rather than some dimbulb out there somewhere, who may exist.
I would say we owe Him everything, but all He requires is for us to believe.Storyteller wrote: We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
Many many people have suffered far worse in the name of the same god.Storyteller wrote:That`s the point though!
We are His children, which is why He did what He did.
We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
And, it was more than just an ugly death. he was ridiculed, disbelieved, tortured, and crucified! Sure, lots of people suffer but so did He, and, the major point in this is that He suffered to save us, not to save Himself.
I just think that this short time we get on this earth is such a beautiful thing, it seems churlish to not be grateful for such a precious gift.
God didn`t decide we owe him a debt. What debt do you think we owe Him? The only thing God wants from us is love and trust me Audie, the love you get back is hundred fold.
Try as I might I just can`t accept that all this is just pure luck and chance. That, to me, seems too insid eout bonkers.
Rob wrote:I would say we owe Him everything, but all He requires is for us to believe.Storyteller wrote: We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
I know.Rob wrote:I would say we owe Him everything, but all He requires is for us to believe.Storyteller wrote: We don`t owe Him anything, all He asks is for us to believe.
No, I was specifically speaking of "a" universally accepted Bible truth that is understood by Christians around the world - that THIS world was never intended to be strife free and peaceful, that whatever negatives and evil are allowed are only for the present earth's period and are used, despite whatever man's nefarious schemes and motives might be, to produce the most Believers in bliss-filled eternity - a FAR greater good. As if all of the difficulties, disease, evil and violence of this world was merely pointless suffering, God would do away with it - because He hates it. But He also has far greater purposes, which are eternal. And the cost of providing man free will is that he will often make terrible choices combined with their connected actions. But the ultimate choice of everyone is what God is FIRST after, then comes the peace - but only for those who seek and find the Lord. The rest will never have it. EVER.Audie: you speak of universally accepted truths, then say the yecs get it wrong.
Yes, Audie, I know you are QUITE unique!Audie: As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.
God has already suffered unimaginably, both physically and emotionally - and FAR beyond what you, I or the typical person will ever go through.Audie: Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.
But there is great planning and precision, from the very beginning of the universe, that shows it HAD to have been planned and designed on a scale we cannot comprehend. And this universe, from it's early moments, adhered to precision and guidance, not only per the mechanisms that so miraculously guide it (natural laws of great power of consistency), but that these things instantly appeared, where before NONE of what we know existed. That sounds like a Designer that is in charge, to me. I don't believe in the impossible: Nothing produces the incredible and then guides itself with such precision.Audie: As for me, I recognize that things are as they are, nobody planned it, nobody is in charge.
YOU might not say it, but you have either one of two possibilities: A God created all that came into existence, or things could exist without a cause.Audie: The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?
But our existence is a fact. And if there is no God ... yep, random dumb luck and enough time creates things out of nothing - BY nothing - organizes it into an extraordinary existence. If I could have such random luck, even a minutia of such, I'd head to Vegas and quickly become the richest man - well, at least as rich as winning every game of chance in every casino in Vegas would make me. Statistically, I would have to agree with you, NO one who understands probabilities believes in such "pure luck and chance" - and yet, here we are, in a tiny world in a vast universe,typing on machines utilizing ones and zeros networked across the world, day after day on this forum. But what you have is either "pure luck and chance" - with enough time - doing what you and I can't comprehend. Else...Audie: The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.
Im not big on the impossible either, hence the flood, 6 day poof, and god in general are not on my list of impossible things to believe before breakfast.Philip wrote:No, I was specifically speaking of "a" universally accepted Bible truth that is understood by Christians around the world - that THIS world was never intended to be strife free and peaceful, that whatever negatives and evil are allowed are only for the present earth's period and are used, despite whatever man's nefarious schemes and motives might be, to produce the most Believers in bliss-filled eternity - a FAR greater good. As if all of the difficulties, disease, evil and violence of this world was merely pointless suffering, God would do away with it - because He hates it. But He also has far greater purposes, which are eternal. And the cost of providing man free will is that he will often make terrible choices combined with their connected actions. But the ultimate choice of everyone is what God is FIRST after, then comes the peace - but only for those who seek and find the Lord. The rest will never have it. EVER.Audie: you speak of universally accepted truths, then say the yecs get it wrong.Yes, Audie, I know you are QUITE unique!Audie: As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.
God has already suffered unimaginably, both physically and emotionally - and FAR beyond what you, I or the typical person will ever go through.Audie: Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.
But there is great planning and precision, from the very beginning of the universe, that shows it HAD to have been planned and designed on a scale we cannot comprehend. And this universe, from it's early moments, adhered to precision and guidance, not only per the mechanisms that so miraculously guide it (natural laws of great power of consistency), but that these things instantly appeared, where before NONE of what we know existed. That sounds like a Designer that is in charge, to me. I don't believe in the impossible: Nothing produces the incredible and then guides itself with such precision.Audie: As for me, I recognize that things are as they are, nobody planned it, nobody is in charge.
I dont tend to do binary thinking. If a cat thought about the origin of catfood, he might come with an either / or, but you'd know that both are going to be wrong.Philip wrote:YOU might not say it, but you have either one of two possibilities: A God created all that came into existence, or things could exist without a cause.Audie: The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?
But our existence is a fact. And if there is no God ... yep, random dumb luck and enough time creates things out of nothing - BY nothing - organizes it into an extraordinary existence. If I could have such random luck, even a minutia of such, I'd head to Vegas and quickly become the richest man - well, at least as rich as winning every game of chance in every casino in Vegas would make me. Statistically, I would have to agree with you, NO one who understands probabilities believes in such "pure luck and chance" - and yet, here we are, in a tiny world in a vast universe,typing on machines utilizing ones and zeros networked across the world, day after day on this forum. But what you have is either "pure luck and chance" - with enough time - doing what you and I can't comprehend. Else...Audie: The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.
There are 2 logical alternatives:Audie wrote:The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it.
I think it can.Audie wrote:I dont tend to do binary thinking. If a cat thought about the origin of catfood, he might come with an either / or, but you'd know that both are going to be wrong.Philip wrote:YOU might not say it, but you have either one of two possibilities: A God created all that came into existence, or things could exist without a cause.Audie: The "all pure luck and chance" is actually a straw argument. Who even says it?
But our existence is a fact. And if there is no God ... yep, random dumb luck and enough time creates things out of nothing - BY nothing - organizes it into an extraordinary existence. If I could have such random luck, even a minutia of such, I'd head to Vegas and quickly become the richest man - well, at least as rich as winning every game of chance in every casino in Vegas would make me. Statistically, I would have to agree with you, NO one who understands probabilities believes in such "pure luck and chance" - and yet, here we are, in a tiny world in a vast universe,typing on machines utilizing ones and zeros networked across the world, day after day on this forum. But what you have is either "pure luck and chance" - with enough time - doing what you and I can't comprehend. Else...Audie: The nature of reality is far beyond human comprehension, yes.
Why?
The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it. Again, the stupidity of persons not present is of no interest to me.
If not god or luck, then what?
Curious... do you feel that there is anything that is random?
Yes
Or that order can self organize from disorder, ever?
How else are we to present random events and processes creating and organizing by themselves, long preceded by dimensions of space and time, all matter and energy, coming into existence all at once, with astounding precision and unimaginable energy? Do you deny that this is what happened? That's what science tells us - prolifically - from countless scientists who have long studied the Big Bang event, along with copious amounts of validating data. Is it the word "dumb" that you find offensive? Actually, that's a bit of appropriate sarcasm, as what happened is brilliant and awe-inspiring. Or would you swap out the word "dumb" for "inevitable" - but that leaves nothing to random chance, eh? And so how can an "educated person" believe nothing causes something so spectacular and infinitely complex? You insist One possibility is impossible, while your only other alternative is completely impossible, scientifically or based upon any of the world's knowledge or understandings.Audie: The way you present pure dumb luck and chance is not representative of the thinking of an educated person who does not happen to think that "god" is it.
And again!Audie: Again, the stupidity of persons not present is of no interest to me.
(But it's probably just two guys in monster suits). Now, I guess ANYTHING is possible!
