Evidence for God from Science

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Use a VPN for geoblocked video, technically it is not illegal and all above board.

Doesnt a VPN have to be purchased Daniel?

bippy123 wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Use a VPN for geoblocked video, technically it is not illegal and all above board.

Doesnt a VPN have to be purchased Daniel?

There are free services available. Just have a search around on the net.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Use a VPN for geoblocked video, technically it is not illegal and all above board.

Doesnt a VPN have to be purchased Daniel?

There are free services available. Just have a search around on the net.

Thanks Daniel will start looking for some

I would direct you to a service but I have yet to use one, my friends all use free VPN's but I don't know which ones. I will try to find out.

August wrote:I know this has been going back and forth a little, but the latest information on the shroud is that it is, well, inexplicable.

There has been no scientific explanation for how the image got on the shroud, and lately, a 3-d map of the shroud was also made, something that cannot be replicated from a layer so thin.

Thoughts?

What do you think of this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9ho-T3SQuw

Ken

Kenny wrote:

August wrote:I know this has been going back and forth a little, but the latest information on the shroud is that it is, well, inexplicable.

There has been no scientific explanation for how the image got on the shroud, and lately, a 3-d map of the shroud was also made, something that cannot be replicated from a layer so thin.

Thoughts?

What do you think of this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9ho-T3SQuw

Ken

lol Where do I start Kenny, the person who created this video probably has not studied the shroud for more then 15 minutes lol.
His argument for the shroud being a fake is that there was a seperate head cloth that was in the tomb. What this ignoramous doesnt understand is that they have the seperate head cloth, and it resides in spain and is called the sudarium of Oviedo and the blood stains on the sudarium are a perfect match for the blood stains on the head image of the cloth. Plus as ancient jewish burial experts like rebecca jackson have noted, the custom is to wrap the head cloth around the head to cover a badly disfigured face from the crowds eyes. The head cloth was taken off and then the shroud was put on him after he was taken off the cross.

This is even worse then the "the shroud image is of leonardo Divinci" Theory. This guy needs to go through this thread before he posts such an ignorant video like this

bippy123 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

August wrote:I know this has been going back and forth a little, but the latest information on the shroud is that it is, well, inexplicable.

There has been no scientific explanation for how the image got on the shroud, and lately, a 3-d map of the shroud was also made, something that cannot be replicated from a layer so thin.

Thoughts?

What do you think of this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9ho-T3SQuw

Ken

lol Where do I start Kenny, the person who created this video probably has not studied the shroud for more then 15 minutes lol.
His argument for the shroud being a fake is that there was a seperate head cloth that was in the tomb. What this ignoramous doesnt understand is that they have the seperate head cloth, and it resides in spain and is called the sudarium of Oviedo and the blood stains on the sudarium are a perfect match for the blood stains on the head image of the cloth. Plus as ancient jewish burial experts like rebecca jackson have noted, the custom is to wrap the head cloth around the head to cover a badly disfigured face from the crowds eyes. The head cloth was taken off and then the shroud was put on him after he was taken off the cross.

This is even worse then the "the shroud image is of leonardo Divinci" Theory. This guy needs to go through this thread before he posts such an ignorant video like this

The video does not suggest a separate head cloth; it says the Shroud of Turin covered the entire body; head included. Are you saying the Shroud did not cover the head? Or am I misunderstanding you.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

August wrote:I know this has been going back and forth a little, but the latest information on the shroud is that it is, well, inexplicable.

There has been no scientific explanation for how the image got on the shroud, and lately, a 3-d map of the shroud was also made, something that cannot be replicated from a layer so thin.

Thoughts?

What do you think of this video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9ho-T3SQuw

Ken

lol Where do I start Kenny, the person who created this video probably has not studied the shroud for more then 15 minutes lol.
His argument for the shroud being a fake is that there was a seperate head cloth that was in the tomb. What this ignoramous doesnt understand is that they have the seperate head cloth, and it resides in spain and is called the sudarium of Oviedo and the blood stains on the sudarium are a perfect match for the blood stains on the head image of the cloth. Plus as ancient jewish burial experts like rebecca jackson have noted, the custom is to wrap the head cloth around the head to cover a badly disfigured face from the crowds eyes. The head cloth was taken off and then the shroud was put on him after he was taken off the cross.

This is even worse then the "the shroud image is of leonardo Divinci" Theory. This guy needs to go through this thread before he posts such an ignorant video like this

The video does not suggest a separate head cloth; it says the Shroud of Turin covered the entire body; head included. Are you saying the Shroud did not cover the head? Or am I misunderstanding you.

Ken

It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.
The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation. If the shroud covered the head during image formation then the image of Jesus would have come out cylindrical and not the way it is on the shroud now.

This information fits perfectly with there being no compression on the dorsal image which tells us that the body couldnt be laying on the stone during image formation. The 3d information encoded into the image fits this evidence as well as it disapattes after 2 inches. If the body was removed off the shroud by natural means therte would have been tearage or smearage of the blood clots. Instead we see pristine, perfect blood clots with no sign of breakage at all which tells us that the man on the shroud got off the shroud by an unnatural way..

Here is a video that also explains this as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEU

This is a very information rich video but focus here on minutes 37.40 to 41.15

Whats also amazing is that it fits in perfectly with Physicist John Jackson's cloth collapse theory where he predicted that the body went through a new law pf physics yet undiscovered and passed right through the shroud leaving this image in the process as an aftereffect.

Whats also amazing is that Jackson predicted that because of this theory ther would also be a second more faint image on the back side of the cloth, but no one was allowed to look back there in 1978 because there was a backstitch sown on my carmelite nuns to protect the backside and I believe this backstitching might have been on there since the 16th century fire.
But a stroke of good luck happened in 2002 when they decided to do a resoration of the shroud and sure enough when they took the backstitching off, they found a second more faint image just as Professor jackson predicted they would in validation of his cloth collapse theory.

Here is a link to Jacksons theory that Stephen Jones was gracious enough to provide for us.

http://theshroudofturin.blogspot.com/20 ... ional.html

This will get you update as far as starting to understand why the technology to recreate this image is beyond even 21st century science to do and might not ever be replicable.

You got some juice information to look through my friend

bippy123 wrote: It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.

No! The video made no mention of another cloth that also covered the head.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation.

But the Shroud image does include the head!

Ken

Kenny wrote:

bippy123 wrote: It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.

No! The video made no mention of another cloth that also covered the head.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation.

But the Shroud image does include the head!

Ken

Yes because the sudarium (face cloth) was put on Christ when he was on the cross and then taken off before the shroud was placed on the head.

I would suggest studying Mark Guscin's papers on the sudarium as he is the expert on that head cloth and why both cloths were wrapped around the same body within very close time intervals
This research article will help you to understand the close connection between the shroud and the sudarium and why they wrapped the body of the image on the shroud at very close time intervals
https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

Opps i want to make a correction on what i said in my previous post.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation

I meant The video is correct that the Sudarium of oviedo did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation. My appologies and nice pickup ken

bippy123 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

bippy123 wrote: It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.

No! The video made no mention of another cloth that also covered the head.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation.

But the Shroud image does include the head!

Ken

Yes because the sudarium (face cloth) was put on Christ when he was on the cross and then taken off before the shroud was placed on the head.

I would suggest studying Mark Guscin's papers on the sudarium as he is the expert on that head cloth and why both cloths were wrapped around the same body within very close time intervals
This research article will help you to understand the close connection between the shroud and the sudarium and why they wrapped the body of the image on the shroud at very close time intervals
https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

Opps i want to make a correction on what i said in my previous post.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation

I meant The video is correct that the Sudarium of oviedo did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation. My appologies and nice pickup ken

The video does not mention the other head covering; it only speaks of the Shroud What do you think of the point the video makes of the Shroud of Turin?

Ken

Kenny wrote:

bippy123 wrote:

Kenny wrote:

bippy123 wrote: It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.

No! The video made no mention of another cloth that also covered the head.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation.

But the Shroud image does include the head!

Ken

Yes because the sudarium (face cloth) was put on Christ when he was on the cross and then taken off before the shroud was placed on the head.

I would suggest studying Mark Guscin's papers on the sudarium as he is the expert on that head cloth and why both cloths were wrapped around the same body within very close time intervals
This research article will help you to understand the close connection between the shroud and the sudarium and why they wrapped the body of the image on the shroud at very close time intervals
https://www.shroud.com/guscin.htm

Opps i want to make a correction on what i said in my previous post.

The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation

I meant The video is correct that the Sudarium of oviedo did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation. My appologies and nice pickup ken

The video does not mention the other head covering; it only speaks of the Shroud What do you think of the point the video makes of the Shroud of Turin?

Ken

kenny I answered this part on the last page and its been debunked so many times its not even funny.
The guy claimed that if the shroud was wrapped around the shroud then there is no way the image could have come about the way it did, but No one said that the shroud covered teh body at the point of image formation. In fact all the evidence shows that the body was floating within a few inches from the upper top and upper bottom of the shroud.

Ill make the post again in case you missed it

It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.
The video is correct that the shroud did cover the head also, but not during the point of image formation. If the shroud covered the head during image formation then the image of Jesus would have come out cylindrical and not the way it is on the shroud now.

This information fits perfectly with there being no compression on the dorsal image which tells us that the body couldnt be laying on the stone during image formation. The 3d information encoded into the image fits this evidence as well as it disapattes after 2 inches. If the body was removed off the shroud by natural means therte would have been tearage or smearage of the blood clots. Instead we see pristine, perfect blood clots with no sign of breakage at all which tells us that the man on the shroud got off the shroud by an unnatural way..

Here is a video that also explains this as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEU

This is a very information rich video but focus here on minutes 37.40 to 41.15

Whats also amazing is that it fits in perfectly with Physicist John Jackson's cloth collapse theory where he predicted that the body went through a new law pf physics yet undiscovered and passed right through the shroud leaving this image in the process as an aftereffect.

Whats also amazing is that Jackson predicted that because of this theory ther would also be a second more faint image on the back side of the cloth, but no one was allowed to look back there in 1978 because there was a backstitch sown on my carmelite nuns to protect the backside and I believe this backstitching might have been on there since the 16th century fire.
But a stroke of good luck happened in 2002 when they decided to do a resoration of the shroud and sure enough when they took the backstitching off, they found a second more faint image just as Professor jackson predicted they would in validation of his cloth collapse theory.

Here is a link to Jacksons theory that Stephen Jones was gracious enough to provide for us.

Again Kenny this guy did no research at all on the shroud and just posted from doing a very light level of research. This theory was debunked more then 20 years ago. This is why you need to visit the links i sent you so you could look at ill researched videos like this guy comes out with so you can spot shoddy research.

He also inserts an apriori bias into the video by saying that even though this is a minor negative against the shroud, it was funny that a burial shroud would cover the body the way this shroud covered it. In fact experts in ancient jewish burials like rebbecca jackson who was an orthodox jew and ended up converting to Christianity probably using teh shroud as a starting point said the shroud of turin was very consistent with jewish burial customs.
The guy who made this video wouldnt last 5 minutes if he came to this thread.

Plus we covered this topic much earlier on in this thread. Even the more educated atheists know this much about the shroud.

Bippy kenny I answered this part on the last page and its been debunked so many times its not even funny.

Ken I am gonna ask you to bear with me on this because you are throwing a lotta stuff that I am not understanding and I am trying to make sense of it

Bippy The guy claimed that if the shroud was wrapped around the shroud then there is no way the image could have come about the way it did


Ken Did you mean if the shroud was wrapped around the body there is no way the image could have come about the way it did? If that is what you meant I agree. If not please explain.


Bippy but No one said that the shroud covered teh body at the point of image formation.


Ken According to the video the shroud covered the body and caused the image to form. Do we agree thus far?


Bippy In fact all the evidence shows that the body was floating within a few inches from the upper top and upper bottom of the shroud.

Ken What evidence? The video didn’t present such evidence! Are you saying the body was floating? That the cloth didn’t touch the body? Please explain.


Bippy Ill make the post again in case you missed it

It also made a suggestion that there was another cloth that also covered the head, which is true but not in the tomb but before the tomb.

Ken Okay here is where you really lose me. What are you talking about when you say “it”?? Obviously not the video I listed because as you know that video said nothing about another cloth covering the head. So what are you talking about here? Please explain

K

Ken Did you mean if the shroud was wrapped around the body there is no way the image could have come about the way it did? If that is what you meant I agree. If not please explain.

Bippy: Correct Kenny that is exactly what I meant.

Ken What evidence? The video didn’t present such evidence! Are you saying the body was floating? That the cloth didn’t touch the body? Please explain.

Bippy: of course the video didn't present this evidence because he didn't do his homework. There were some parts of the cloth that did touch the body because the 3 d spatial information disappates when greater than 2 inches so maybe part of the nose might have been touching the cloth barely but the cloth itself had to have been made taught as the image formation was taking place. This is confirmed by both the 3 height information recorded onto the image and the fact that there was no compression at all on the dorsal image . If the dorsal image was laying upon the stone there would have been compression on the dorsal image since the body was layed on the stone originally, but no compression shown on the backside of the image.

Imagine if you were layed back first on a piece of stone and some made an image of you while you were in that position .
The image would have shown the gravity of your musculoskeletal being pressed against the stone,but we find nothing of this sort happening on the shroud image. Combine this with the 3 d spatial information and you get a body floating 2 inches away from the inner top and 2 inches away from the inner bottom of the shroud.

Kenny you really have to watch the jesuit high school presentation link I gave you as it will explain this in detail.

Ken Okay here is where you really lose me. What are you talking about when you say “it”?? Obviously not the video I listed because as you know that video said nothing about another cloth covering the head. So what are you talking about here? Please explain

Bippy I allready apologized in the previous post about your video not talking about the other head cloth that was places on Jesus.

Hope my answer explains this better

Please Ken watch the jesuit video that I posted and you will get a much better understanding of what science knows so far about the shroud.

Remember also that the blood clots on the shroud are pristine,untouched , unbroken and unsmeared.

If you wrap a shroud around a bloody body the blood from the blood clots on the body form a light bond between the body and the burial shroud that is held together lightly by the blood.
If you try to steal the body by taking it off the shroud or the body just gets up off the shroud those blood clots are going to be broken or smeared depending if the blood had dried or not.
There is no smearing or breaking of the blood clots on the shroud. The blood clots are pristine , unbroken and unsmeared meaning that the body of the man on the shroud had to have left the shroud in a very unnatural way.

This is why physicist john Jackson theorized in his cloth collapse theory that the body of Christ went into another dimensional state and passed right through the burial shroud.
Remember to read the link I gave you on john Jackson's cloth collapse theory a few posts back.
His theory made an amazing prediction that as Jesus body had passed through the shroud it would also leave a more faint smaller image on the backside of the shroud .

Now there was no way of knowing if that second more faint image was there or not because there had been a backstitching put on the backside of the shroud after the 16th century fire that had been on there for more then 400'years and the Vatican wasn't allowing the sturp team to take the backstitching off in 1978 when they had 5 days of access to the shroud hands on.

But in 2002 the Vatican decided to do a restoration of the shroud and that's when they had a chance to take the backstitching off and love and behold they found a second more faint shroud image just as Jackson's cloth collapse theory predicted. Jackson was a physicist who worked for NASA's jet propulsion unit so he was no slouch. In fact almost all the sturp team members were specialists in their own scientific field.

I will try to find dame Isabelle Pitzek's version of what happened to the shroud at the point of image formation so you can get a better picture of what Jackson believes happened during image formation in my next post.

I'm typing as I'm dealing with this heavy itchimg all over my body but thank God I finally got a dermatologist I'm gonna see probably this week. Hooefully he will finally tell me what's wrong.

Ok Kenny I found A shorter version of the video that will explain this to you perfectly .
Dame pizcek is a world renowned artist who is also a Particle physicist that specializes in time.

In this video she explains what I have been trying to convey about the image to you.

http://youtu.be/oRmCaindCpg

Enjoy my friend