Puritan,
After debunking Gregory Boyd's comments on Proverbs 16:4, maybe you could debunk John Gill's thoughts on this passage (Proverbs 16:4) as well.
John Gill's commentary states:
yea, even the wicked for the day of evil
this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory.
It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination:
God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice.
So now Puritan, you have two peoples comments on Pro. 16:4. The thing is, one is an Open Theist, and the other is a well known and respected Calvinist, yet both of their thoughts on Proverbs 16:4 are very similar to each other. Both would agree with each other. So now, maybe you could show us where they are wrong.
God's omniscience vs free-will
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puritan lad
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This will be my last post in this thread until B.W. has completed his Discourse. I just find it interesting that you stopped where you did in Gill's Commentary. Let me finish it for you...
"The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number."
"The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number."
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
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This just says that there will be a day of reckoning and judgement coming for the wicked...nobody is denying that. It doesn't contradict what the Boyd and Gill wrote."The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number."
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B. W.
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PL to be brief - What I mean by God changing his mind is found in Genesis 6:6-8 and Jeremiah 18:8. That is my definition of this. There are requirements God has for himself regarding this matter. More on this as I continue.puritan lad wrote:B.W.,
I want to deal with your posts in detail, so it will take some time. I particularly want to deal with what we agree on at least in name, that God is Sovereign. What does that mean?
I also want to delve into God's "foreknowledge". What does foreknowledge mean? Is it simply knowledge of realization? If that were true, then an all-knowing God "foreknows" everybody? What does Jesus mean when He tells the wicked in the Day of Judgment, "I never knew you"? Of course he knew that they existed. He knew everything about them. I'll expound more later.
I will also totally disagree with you that "God can change His mind". If that were true, He may decide that Jesus's Death wasn't enough for us. But I'll get into more detail later. I first need to debunk Lowly One's (Gregory Boyd's) posts.
I, again, want to reiterate that there are many saved Arminians. However, the issues that we are debating are not small ones. I will pray with an Arminian, and occasionally attend Arminian services when friends have special occasions. However, I'm not interested in shelving sound doctrine for the sake of unity. Jesus prayed for unity, but not at the expense of Doctrine. Such is really no unity at all.
Will respond in due time.
God Bless,
PL
As for God's Sovereignty, you may discover I am a bit more fervent than you are on this subject and as you keep reading my post series you'll see what I mean. We do agree on this matter though, and I think you'll understand better than most the approach I use to help explain God's total absolute Sovereignty.
We do need unity and come to a consensus on these matters. I am not writing about you but about the overall heated debate between Calvinism and Arminianism that has caused so much confusion.
I once known a young teenager who got a hold of Calvinism doctrine and quiet literally went bonkers never knowing if he was part of the elect and then went nuts over Armenian view of Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. His anguish was so terrible, he attempted suicide. I and a friend intervened. That was years ago, and I lost contact. Last I saw, he was in torment about election and moved out of the state. God I pray he did not do the unthinkable because of this.
Something is wrong if doctrine drives people do such horrible things. Why don't you write out how free moral agency, how God holds us accountable for our decisions -- free will works in regard to predestination and foreknowing. You pound on free will and say that humanity can still make choices [albeit the wrong ones concerning God]. This is causing bewilderment here. Can you clarify your statements more?
In the meantime, I'll continue to post a lengthy series of post on the subject that build upon each other.
PL - God Bless!
You are a true friend in Christ! Someday I would like to meet with you!
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B. W.
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Continuing from June 13, 2006 post...
Genesis chapters 1-3 reveal so much that you rightly can say the entire plan of redemption is laid out within these three chapters. That is why I chose to look at these. Also from these chapters, we can spring into other parts of the bible to verify context and the themes under discussion.
Within these three chapters it reveals the manner how God actively governs the affairs of man and His creation. Why is this important? It helps answers the debate over foreknowing and predestination.
For example, some teach that God is basically a micromanager. According to this view they envision God doing and causing everything, like God made you sneeze today; or made the evil person attack the innocent. Or even that God caused you and I to go to the restroom at the most inconvenient times. Sounds silly, but that is what many believe.
Others teach that God is asleep at the wheel. Creation is on auto-pilot and before it all crashes, God awakes to save the day. Both these points of view miss how God governs the universe. They both do not line up with God's nature and character.
There are also variations on these two basic themes but the import is still the same: does God govern and cause all things — or does God govern as a victim of chance? Both these basic views do not line up with God's nature and character. They give a false view of God. You can even find scriptures that seem to support both perspectives. What's the truth?
Genesis chapter 1 -3 helps us refocus on the truth about how God governs the universe and the affairs of humanity. Is he a micromanager? Or asleep at the wheel letting chance influence how he governs? Or just maybe there is something else we have missed?
The Beginning:
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...” KJV
Genesis 1:1-31 reveals much about God's nature, character, and will. All I suggest is for you to focus on the 'How' God creates and not so much on the 'why' God created. As to why God created, I mentioned before that God created in order to demonstrate that He is all that He is to none other than Himself for whatever purposes, plans, and reasons only known to him. I do not know any better answer than that.
God creating out of nothing reveals that he is all powerful. It tells us God was wisdom and intelligence far above all. None can compare with God! He is the alpha and omega. He sees all, knows all, He is God. From the first chapter of Genesis, we can see he had a specific design and plan in mind when creating the heavens and the earth. This demonstrates God is all wise and all knowing.
All God needs to do is to speak and it becomes. Hebrews 1:3 tells us the Lord upholds the universe by the word of His power. Genesis 1:3-29 states that God said and it was so. Even now, higher mathematics and physics can measure and analyze how mass moves, the properties of gravity, and even without realizing it, see how God sets in motion the natural laws that keep the universe together.
Thus, one way God governs is by speaking. When God speaks, if he so wills, it will come to pass. His words set in motion events, laws of nature, give order to creation in multiplied symbiotic fashions; they establish life and set it all in motion. His words have left a lasting finger print from God which reveals that he created it all for himself for his good pleasure.
Again, God's finger print on creation shows plainly an order to it. This order in the universe and on earth demonstrates to us something about how God governs the universe and all the affairs of life. Yes, all creation reveals God's invisible attributes as Romans 1:20 clearly states - Lets' look at a few of these revealed in the Psalms.
Psalm 104:1-35 reveals so much about how God governs rightly, fairly, justly, perfectly revealing who He is. At first reading you may be tempted to think God is micromanaging everything but is this really the case or is it uncovering something else about God?
Verse 24 — “O Lord how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them.” From this statement I hope you can see that He governs by a profound wisdom. In other words, he sets in motion creation to go a certain direction and intervenes often. Look at this more and read through the entire Psalm about animals.
When God feeds the animals this does not imply that God places food directly in the animal's mouth. He designed them to eat certain things, at certain times, and places. God provides for them. The environment of the animal, its appetite, even its residue, all interact in an incredible display that keeps the earth alive and functioning. That reveals wisdom. He governs by this integrating wisdom that sets in motion a series of measurable events that display the handiwork of God.
He designs the animal to perform some function. A frog eats flies. Flies provide cleansing up of decaying things. God will send a fly to the frog to eat so there will not be an over abundance of flies. God designed the frog to catch and eat flies. It is left up to the frog to catch the fly that God sends. If the frog misses the fly, was it a micromanaged event by God for the frog to miss the fly? Or was the Frog learning how to catch flies proficiently as God designed?
It would not prove God fair or just for God to set the food directly into the frog's mouth or zap it into its belly. This would violate the frogs design and demonstrate God not being truly all he is. Instead, as verse 27-30 reveals, these wait for their food. It is up to the beast, to go and get its food. Does this mean the frog or animals have free will? Certainly not, it was how the frog was designed. It is in the design. God fashioned the frog to eat flies, how the frog goes about this, is up to the frog according to God's design.
This displays a deep wisdom at work. In other words, God governs by guiding, showing, directing, testing, and also by direct intervention as needed; not by some forceful micromanagement style but rather with a profound deep wisdom that honors how the creature was designed and at the same time displaying the circumspect justice, wisdom, equity, perfect ways, of God in the treatment of what he created. It shows that God respects, and honors those He made, no matter how small. He'll send the frog another fly.
Does God cook your breakfast for you? If he does, let me know so I can place my order. No, God does not govern motivated by blind chance either. If you are waiting for God to cook your breakfast, well, you'll starve till you learn how to cook your own. God provides the food. You'll have to fetch it. The bacon does not get into the frying pan by chance, it is placed by you. God designed you a certain way and sets things in motion.
God governs by setting things in motion and then overseeing, watching, showing, testing, guiding, prompting, and when needed, direct interventions to get things back on track so to speak. The bible teaches this: Psalm111:1-11, Psalm 14:2, Psalm 11:4-5, Psalm 29:1-11, Psalm 32:8, Psalm 40:5, Psalm 53:2, Psalm 94:11, Proverbs 3:19-20, Proverbs 15:3, Proverbs 16:1-3, Psalm 48:14, all are just a few examples of this.
God governs by a deeply profound wisdom. This means he sets in motion certain things and oversees the outcomes. In other words, He sets in motion the laws governing life and thus life moves in the direction that his laws govern. He actively watches over, guides, test, prompts, and when needed, directly intervenes.
Stay within those boundaries, all will be well. Stray, from them — you'll starve and die. How you live, is up to you. That is a gift from God he will not recall, Psalm 68:18. What you do with the gift of life will be judged, Psalm 11:5-7, Ezekiel11:21. In this God proves all He is true, right and pure as we shall later see.
God governs by His wisdom, not ours. He governs by the word of His power which upholds the universe that sets it in motion. He oversees, watches, tests, shows, guides, prompts, and when needed, directly intervenes in this motion toward a specific goal.
Psalms 12:6 [7], “The words of the LORD are pure words, as silver tried in a crucible on the earth, refined seven times.” JPS
God has a plan. After God created, he saw everything he had made and beheld that it was very good… Genesis 1:31
The direction and course was set.
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Genesis chapters 1-3 reveal so much that you rightly can say the entire plan of redemption is laid out within these three chapters. That is why I chose to look at these. Also from these chapters, we can spring into other parts of the bible to verify context and the themes under discussion.
Within these three chapters it reveals the manner how God actively governs the affairs of man and His creation. Why is this important? It helps answers the debate over foreknowing and predestination.
For example, some teach that God is basically a micromanager. According to this view they envision God doing and causing everything, like God made you sneeze today; or made the evil person attack the innocent. Or even that God caused you and I to go to the restroom at the most inconvenient times. Sounds silly, but that is what many believe.
Others teach that God is asleep at the wheel. Creation is on auto-pilot and before it all crashes, God awakes to save the day. Both these points of view miss how God governs the universe. They both do not line up with God's nature and character.
There are also variations on these two basic themes but the import is still the same: does God govern and cause all things — or does God govern as a victim of chance? Both these basic views do not line up with God's nature and character. They give a false view of God. You can even find scriptures that seem to support both perspectives. What's the truth?
Genesis chapter 1 -3 helps us refocus on the truth about how God governs the universe and the affairs of humanity. Is he a micromanager? Or asleep at the wheel letting chance influence how he governs? Or just maybe there is something else we have missed?
The Beginning:
Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth...” KJV
Genesis 1:1-31 reveals much about God's nature, character, and will. All I suggest is for you to focus on the 'How' God creates and not so much on the 'why' God created. As to why God created, I mentioned before that God created in order to demonstrate that He is all that He is to none other than Himself for whatever purposes, plans, and reasons only known to him. I do not know any better answer than that.
God creating out of nothing reveals that he is all powerful. It tells us God was wisdom and intelligence far above all. None can compare with God! He is the alpha and omega. He sees all, knows all, He is God. From the first chapter of Genesis, we can see he had a specific design and plan in mind when creating the heavens and the earth. This demonstrates God is all wise and all knowing.
All God needs to do is to speak and it becomes. Hebrews 1:3 tells us the Lord upholds the universe by the word of His power. Genesis 1:3-29 states that God said and it was so. Even now, higher mathematics and physics can measure and analyze how mass moves, the properties of gravity, and even without realizing it, see how God sets in motion the natural laws that keep the universe together.
Thus, one way God governs is by speaking. When God speaks, if he so wills, it will come to pass. His words set in motion events, laws of nature, give order to creation in multiplied symbiotic fashions; they establish life and set it all in motion. His words have left a lasting finger print from God which reveals that he created it all for himself for his good pleasure.
Again, God's finger print on creation shows plainly an order to it. This order in the universe and on earth demonstrates to us something about how God governs the universe and all the affairs of life. Yes, all creation reveals God's invisible attributes as Romans 1:20 clearly states - Lets' look at a few of these revealed in the Psalms.
Psalm 104:1-35 reveals so much about how God governs rightly, fairly, justly, perfectly revealing who He is. At first reading you may be tempted to think God is micromanaging everything but is this really the case or is it uncovering something else about God?
Verse 24 — “O Lord how manifold are your works! In wisdom you have made them.” From this statement I hope you can see that He governs by a profound wisdom. In other words, he sets in motion creation to go a certain direction and intervenes often. Look at this more and read through the entire Psalm about animals.
When God feeds the animals this does not imply that God places food directly in the animal's mouth. He designed them to eat certain things, at certain times, and places. God provides for them. The environment of the animal, its appetite, even its residue, all interact in an incredible display that keeps the earth alive and functioning. That reveals wisdom. He governs by this integrating wisdom that sets in motion a series of measurable events that display the handiwork of God.
He designs the animal to perform some function. A frog eats flies. Flies provide cleansing up of decaying things. God will send a fly to the frog to eat so there will not be an over abundance of flies. God designed the frog to catch and eat flies. It is left up to the frog to catch the fly that God sends. If the frog misses the fly, was it a micromanaged event by God for the frog to miss the fly? Or was the Frog learning how to catch flies proficiently as God designed?
It would not prove God fair or just for God to set the food directly into the frog's mouth or zap it into its belly. This would violate the frogs design and demonstrate God not being truly all he is. Instead, as verse 27-30 reveals, these wait for their food. It is up to the beast, to go and get its food. Does this mean the frog or animals have free will? Certainly not, it was how the frog was designed. It is in the design. God fashioned the frog to eat flies, how the frog goes about this, is up to the frog according to God's design.
This displays a deep wisdom at work. In other words, God governs by guiding, showing, directing, testing, and also by direct intervention as needed; not by some forceful micromanagement style but rather with a profound deep wisdom that honors how the creature was designed and at the same time displaying the circumspect justice, wisdom, equity, perfect ways, of God in the treatment of what he created. It shows that God respects, and honors those He made, no matter how small. He'll send the frog another fly.
Does God cook your breakfast for you? If he does, let me know so I can place my order. No, God does not govern motivated by blind chance either. If you are waiting for God to cook your breakfast, well, you'll starve till you learn how to cook your own. God provides the food. You'll have to fetch it. The bacon does not get into the frying pan by chance, it is placed by you. God designed you a certain way and sets things in motion.
God governs by setting things in motion and then overseeing, watching, showing, testing, guiding, prompting, and when needed, direct interventions to get things back on track so to speak. The bible teaches this: Psalm111:1-11, Psalm 14:2, Psalm 11:4-5, Psalm 29:1-11, Psalm 32:8, Psalm 40:5, Psalm 53:2, Psalm 94:11, Proverbs 3:19-20, Proverbs 15:3, Proverbs 16:1-3, Psalm 48:14, all are just a few examples of this.
God governs by a deeply profound wisdom. This means he sets in motion certain things and oversees the outcomes. In other words, He sets in motion the laws governing life and thus life moves in the direction that his laws govern. He actively watches over, guides, test, prompts, and when needed, directly intervenes.
Stay within those boundaries, all will be well. Stray, from them — you'll starve and die. How you live, is up to you. That is a gift from God he will not recall, Psalm 68:18. What you do with the gift of life will be judged, Psalm 11:5-7, Ezekiel11:21. In this God proves all He is true, right and pure as we shall later see.
God governs by His wisdom, not ours. He governs by the word of His power which upholds the universe that sets it in motion. He oversees, watches, tests, shows, guides, prompts, and when needed, directly intervenes in this motion toward a specific goal.
Psalms 12:6 [7], “The words of the LORD are pure words, as silver tried in a crucible on the earth, refined seven times.” JPS
God has a plan. After God created, he saw everything he had made and beheld that it was very good… Genesis 1:31
The direction and course was set.
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B. W.
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- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
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Contiued....
As I stated before, God governs by use of an incredible wisdom, by his words that set in motion events. His style is one of guiding, testing, showing, directing, and even by direct intervention. God sets in motion the laws of physics and they are upheld because he placed them.
Look at Genesis 1:1-31. Notice it states that God said let there be light, and there was. God established the heavens. God no longer is vainly speaking let there be light over and over again as a micromanager. God set the light in motion. He gave light it laws, boundaries, which even human scientist can even now measure and predict what light can and cannot do.
God designed the frog. The frog will remain a frog as designed. It will not turn into a prince no matter how many secular evolutionist kiss it. The Frog lives within the boundaries it was designed it. God set that in motion. He even fashioned animals to adapt to the environment but the animals remain as they were designed and do what they do within the boundaries of the design. God said and it became so. This, the Genesis account tells us: God established creation and saw it was very good.
This reveals how he governs — by order, structure, laws that establish a functioning mechanism that runs as it was designed. Next, he governs by watching what He made, He beholds it and watches it unfold. He helps it, prompts it along, test it, and when needed directly intervenes.
This is my point:
Never build your theology on only one facet of how God governs. If one only seeks and reads the bible scriptures that only focus on God's direct intervention, you might end up fatalistic — living in the never-never land of what ever will be will be. Thinking God made you sneeze or go to the restroom at the worst possible time. Never realizing that He designed the human body to run and function as it was designed. Dust or pollen gets in the nose; the body is designed to expel it with a sneeze. God did not make you sneeze — how he designed the body is what did.
Error creeps in and causes havoc amongst the brethren when we focus only on one truth at the exclusion of the others. Both sides of the debate have done this. Let's return to the Lord Jesus Christ — author and finisher of our faith. Seek out how he does things according to his nature and character and you'll find what his will is too.
Are you catching on to how God governs? And how each of the ways God governs, overseeing, testing, watching, showing, guiding, prompting, and when needed, directly intervening, how these all line up with God's nature and character? Scriptural truth is overwhelming backing up what I am saying.
If you see this, then God's foreknowing and predestination will begin to make sense and you'll discover that God is more sovereign than you first thought or ever imagined.
I had to go through all this background so we can actually look at how God's foreknowing and predestination allows certain things to be. Next time I post I hope to explore how God designed man, and how a God who knows all, sees all, is everywhere, did not stop mans fall. Why and how the devil was planned to be in the garden. What was God up too?
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As I stated before, God governs by use of an incredible wisdom, by his words that set in motion events. His style is one of guiding, testing, showing, directing, and even by direct intervention. God sets in motion the laws of physics and they are upheld because he placed them.
Look at Genesis 1:1-31. Notice it states that God said let there be light, and there was. God established the heavens. God no longer is vainly speaking let there be light over and over again as a micromanager. God set the light in motion. He gave light it laws, boundaries, which even human scientist can even now measure and predict what light can and cannot do.
God designed the frog. The frog will remain a frog as designed. It will not turn into a prince no matter how many secular evolutionist kiss it. The Frog lives within the boundaries it was designed it. God set that in motion. He even fashioned animals to adapt to the environment but the animals remain as they were designed and do what they do within the boundaries of the design. God said and it became so. This, the Genesis account tells us: God established creation and saw it was very good.
This reveals how he governs — by order, structure, laws that establish a functioning mechanism that runs as it was designed. Next, he governs by watching what He made, He beholds it and watches it unfold. He helps it, prompts it along, test it, and when needed directly intervenes.
This is my point:
Never build your theology on only one facet of how God governs. If one only seeks and reads the bible scriptures that only focus on God's direct intervention, you might end up fatalistic — living in the never-never land of what ever will be will be. Thinking God made you sneeze or go to the restroom at the worst possible time. Never realizing that He designed the human body to run and function as it was designed. Dust or pollen gets in the nose; the body is designed to expel it with a sneeze. God did not make you sneeze — how he designed the body is what did.
Error creeps in and causes havoc amongst the brethren when we focus only on one truth at the exclusion of the others. Both sides of the debate have done this. Let's return to the Lord Jesus Christ — author and finisher of our faith. Seek out how he does things according to his nature and character and you'll find what his will is too.
Are you catching on to how God governs? And how each of the ways God governs, overseeing, testing, watching, showing, guiding, prompting, and when needed, directly intervening, how these all line up with God's nature and character? Scriptural truth is overwhelming backing up what I am saying.
If you see this, then God's foreknowing and predestination will begin to make sense and you'll discover that God is more sovereign than you first thought or ever imagined.
I had to go through all this background so we can actually look at how God's foreknowing and predestination allows certain things to be. Next time I post I hope to explore how God designed man, and how a God who knows all, sees all, is everywhere, did not stop mans fall. Why and how the devil was planned to be in the garden. What was God up too?
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B. W.
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LowlyOne wrote:Puritan,
After debunking Gregory Boyd's comments on Proverbs 16:4, maybe you could debunk John Gill's thoughts on this passage (Proverbs 16:4) as well.
John Gill's commentary states:
yea, even the wicked for the day of evil
this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory.
It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination:
God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice.
So now Puritan, you have two peoples comments on Pro. 16:4. The thing is, one is an Open Theist, and the other is a well known and respected Calvinist, yet both of their thoughts on Proverbs 16:4 are very similar to each other. Both would agree with each other. So now, maybe you could show us where they are wrong.
I'll have to break into this here. As I stated before:
Never build your theology on only one facet of how God governs...
Proverbs 16:1-8 is dealing with God using the wicked as instruments to punish pride and also that God can do what He wills to the wicked — not that he made the wicked — wicked.
If God made the wicked — wicked this would violate his very sovereign nature of being righteous, merciful, equitable, just, being perfect, etc, and etc…
Read James 1:13-18
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puritan lad
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B.W.B. W. wrote:I'll have to break into this here. As I stated before:
Never build your theology on only one facet of how God governs...
Proverbs 16:1-8 is dealing with God using the wicked as instruments to punish pride and also that God can do what He wills to the wicked — not that he made the wicked — wicked.
If God made the wicked — wicked this would violate his very sovereign nature of being righteous, merciful, equitable, just, being perfect, etc, and etc…
Read James 1:13-18
Just to interject and clarify that I agree here. God does not make man wicked. Man is wicked by nature, which I will expound more later. As I mentioned before, all God has to do is withhold grace from the sinful man (of which we all are), and man will continue to be wicked.
Actually, I may begin posting responses in another thread, so that B.W can continue his line of thinking here and post responses to mine, if necessary.
B.W. You are a true brother in Christ. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I believe that Arminians and other free-willers are unsaved. I hope I've made that clear from the outset. But there are serious issues at stake concerning the nature of the gospel itself, as well as the inerrancy of Scripture.
Again, I'm taking in all that you wrote, and will point out area where I am in disagreement, as well as why.
God Bless,
PL
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN
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B. W.
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Thank You PL - yes - humanity is wicked by nature! Please post what you disagree on.puritan lad wrote: Just to interject and clarify that I agree here. God does not make man wicked. Man is wicked by nature, which I will expound more later. As I mentioned before, all God has to do is withhold grace from the sinful man (of which we all are), and man will continue to be wicked.
B.W. You are a true brother in Christ. I don't want anyone to get the idea that I believe that Arminians and other free-willers are unsaved. I hope I've made that clear from the outset. But there are serious issues at stake concerning the nature of the gospel itself, as well as the inerrancy of Scripture.
Again, I'm taking in all that you wrote, and will point out area where I am in disagreement, as well as why.
God Bless,
PL
Also, let me clarify my statement on God changing his mind a little more and then afterwards I'll return to the topic:
Malachi 3:6-7 and Numbers 23:19 states that the Lord does not change and that God will not change His mind — repent, relent. Yet in Genesis 6:5-8 and Jeremiah 18:9-10 it tells us that God does indeed repent, relent, change His mind. Is this a contradiction? Answer is, No.
Turn to Hebrews 6:13-16-20. It clears this up. Here it speaks of God making an oath. He swears by his oath. You can count on God's oath for these reasons:
One: God does not lie
Two: God does not change his mind concerning His oath, his word.
Three: God will do what he says he will do to the utmost.
Four: God cannot deny himself
Five: Therefore, you can trust God and have complete faith in the Lord
Therefore you can count on God. What about Genesis 6:5-8 and Jeremiah 18:9-10 then? The answer is found in Hebrews 6:17, “Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.” NIV
God's unchanging nature! Wow, amazing how the bible points to God's nature. This is the very subject we have been talking about! God's unchanging nature and character reveals who he is, how he acts, how he governs, etc.
God is righteous, reveals justice, is merciful, compassionate, loving, kind, exercises judgment, offers salvation, test, refines, and these are just a few attributes of his nature that does not change. Here are a few references from Psalms — Ps 19, Ps 11:4-7, Ps 18:6, Ps 36:5-10, Ps 42:8, Ps 94:14, concerning God.
There are simply way too many scriptures to list here that describe God's unchanging nature. Now, how can God change His mind when the bible plainly says He cannot change his mind due to his nature?
The answer is discovered in his oath, his word he gave to us. Like his nature, this does not change. God keeps His word, oath. Let's look at a few scriptures that concern oaths he has given us in direct context of what we are discussing.
Isaiah 55:7 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of iniquity his thoughts; and let him return unto the LORD, and He will have compassion upon him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.” JPS
Ezekiel 18:25-28, “Yet ye say: The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not equal? Is it not your ways that are unequal? When the righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die therefore; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considers, and turns away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die” JPS
Ezekiel 33:19, “And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall live...” JPS
2 Chronicles 7:14, “if My people, upon whom My name is called, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their evil ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” JPS
Here are a few more references out of many: Psalm 7:9-17, Acts 17:30, Mark 6:12.
The point of it all:
As you can see, due to God's unchanging nature, he will keep His oath and now that you have read part of his oath, praise God he is not man! He does not lie! He does not change! And most importantly God does not change his mind concerning his oath which is founded firmly in the cement of his unchanging nature.
God is righteous, shows justice, is merciful, compassionate, loving, kind, exercises judgment, offers salvation, test, refines, and these are just a few attributes of his nature that does not change. His oaths reflect his nature and character.
Aren't you glad!
Hebrews 6:17, “Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.” NIV
Since God's nature offers his oaths regarding repentance, he can change his mind about you and grant you eternal life. Therefore, that is why God relented from destroying humanity in Genesis chapter six and offers to repent when one also repents as Jeremiah 18:8 says. He made an Oath based on his nature and character — that cannot change.
Praise God he honors his word, his oath! He changeth not! He does not change his mind! He acts on what He speaks! He keeps his promises and fulfills them! Praise God!
Let's look at another oath God gave to man fund in Genesis 1:26-31 and get back on topic.
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B. W.
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- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
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- Location: Colorado
Genesis continued From June 14, 2006 11:23pm post...
What would happen if God decided to not be true to himself? He has that right. He is sovereign. If God chose to just wipe out all the angels and humanity, right now. Who could stop him? None could. God would be in his perfect right to do this, but he does not. Why?
God remains true to all he is. He remains true to his nature and character. Job 34:10-17 reveals much on this matter: “Far be it from God to do evil and do wrong that it would pervert justice. Can he who hates justice govern?” NIV
Job 37:23-24; “The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.” NIV
It is not in God's nature to do evil and wrong. He will not pervert justice and because of his fairness and great righteousness, he will not oppress. Also, Job 37:16 states God is perfect in knowledge. Psalm 18:30, “As for God, His way is perfect! The word of the Lord is tested and tried; He is a shield to all those who take refuge and put their trust in Him.” NIV
God's ways are perfect; his word is tested and tried. God does not lie as Numbers 23:19 and Hebrews 6:13-20 state. It is God's nature not to lie. It is his nature to do things perfectly. 2 Timothy 2:13, “If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.” NKJV
God cannot deny who he is. It is God's nature to love, show mercy, do rightly, not lie, uphold and honor his word, all in accord to perfect justice, and dispense perfect judgment and recompense. All his ways are perfect. It is his nature to be all wise, all powerful, all knowing, be eternal, to be a creator, to be a God of the living, etc.
God is true to himself and all creation, angels, humanity were all created for God's good pleasure, will, purposes. To prove himself to none other than himself that he is all that he is. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me and past finding out.
In Genesis chapter one, we see how God created and established the universe and this world. How he set in motion all things according to his grand design. But why did God do it this way? Why not just make everything perfect and right, without sin and the devil to begin with? Ever wondered this?
The answer is discovered in the very nature and character of God. God is being true to himself for his good pleasure. His ways are perfect. He is wiser than us. Isaiah 66:22 and Revelations 21:1-4 state that God's plan involves a new heaven and earth as the old order will pass away. It will be a place where righteousness dwells, no sin, etc. We are living in the older. It takes time to remove dross — this demonstrates the fairness of God and displays his vast deep wisdom.
Psalm 12:6, “The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” NKJV
And God said, let there be light and there was. God had it in mind all along and intended the new to be inhabited for his good pleasure. Law of thermodynamics will also change. Think on it a bit more.
The old will be removed so the new can replace, and thus the new established forever: no sin, no sickness, no death, etc. Perfect arrives perfected perfectly. All God's ways are perfect.
God wanted the new to be inhabited, but with whom? How can God create and not be fair to those he intends to live with? Should God deny them wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, splendor, and avoid any possible chance that these may turn on God himself and use his own nature as a tool to conceive and perform sin?
Should not a perfect just God stop this and avoid it? How can God be all powerful if he did? Would not God fear and thus not be perfect and not all powerful by not being able to control all things that can happen? God cannot deny who he is. His ways are perfect. He is all powerful.
Should God not instead let those he intends to live with have wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and splendor learn responsibility that these carry on their own? This would match his just nature and demonstrate equity sublime, Job 34:10-17.
Job 37:23-24; “The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.” NIV
In this God foresaw sin, the beginning to the end all in one split second of time knowing full well, his special beings will fall into temptation that could corrupt their wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and splendor. This demonstrates God's all knowing nature. He foresees who will and who will not and created them all anyway. God is fair!
He even made a plan to restore some that fall in such a perfect manner that it will astound all with the beauty of its equity, justice, and righteousness displayed. In this God proves himself, fair, righteous, just, merciful, all powerful, all knowing, all wise, etc and etc. He will perfect those restored, preparing them for their future habitation.
For those that will refuse of their own accord, God justly prepares their future habitation banished from God - Banished from a God so good, so fair, so just, so holy, so loving, so kind, so righteous, etc and etc as they desired and proved by their manner of life that they corrupt. Yes, God test the hearts. He judges. He foreknows corruption will never enter the new heavens and earth and makes it so, justly and rightly. How?
It would be the beings own accord to use their wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and splendor as they desire. God designed them this way, a design that permits responsibility to be of their-own accord. Why? So that God remains true to himself: the author of life and not the author and father of sin. James 1:12-18 Proving God fair, loving, and kind; Proving God all powerful and wise.
Job 36:3-12, Job 36:22-26, Psalm 9:16-19, Psalm 11:4-7. Psalm 14:2, John 3:5-6, John 3:15-21, Romans 8:18-39, Ephesians 2:6-9, Job 40:1-8, Job 42:1-6
God is true to himself and all creation, angels, humanity - all were created for God's good pleasure, will, purposes. God proves himself to none other than himself that he is all that he is. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me and past finding out. Glory to God and Amen!
Let's continue and finally go to Genesis 1:26-31 and ponder our beginnings.
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What would happen if God decided to not be true to himself? He has that right. He is sovereign. If God chose to just wipe out all the angels and humanity, right now. Who could stop him? None could. God would be in his perfect right to do this, but he does not. Why?
God remains true to all he is. He remains true to his nature and character. Job 34:10-17 reveals much on this matter: “Far be it from God to do evil and do wrong that it would pervert justice. Can he who hates justice govern?” NIV
Job 37:23-24; “The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.” NIV
It is not in God's nature to do evil and wrong. He will not pervert justice and because of his fairness and great righteousness, he will not oppress. Also, Job 37:16 states God is perfect in knowledge. Psalm 18:30, “As for God, His way is perfect! The word of the Lord is tested and tried; He is a shield to all those who take refuge and put their trust in Him.” NIV
God's ways are perfect; his word is tested and tried. God does not lie as Numbers 23:19 and Hebrews 6:13-20 state. It is God's nature not to lie. It is his nature to do things perfectly. 2 Timothy 2:13, “If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.” NKJV
God cannot deny who he is. It is God's nature to love, show mercy, do rightly, not lie, uphold and honor his word, all in accord to perfect justice, and dispense perfect judgment and recompense. All his ways are perfect. It is his nature to be all wise, all powerful, all knowing, be eternal, to be a creator, to be a God of the living, etc.
God is true to himself and all creation, angels, humanity were all created for God's good pleasure, will, purposes. To prove himself to none other than himself that he is all that he is. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me and past finding out.
In Genesis chapter one, we see how God created and established the universe and this world. How he set in motion all things according to his grand design. But why did God do it this way? Why not just make everything perfect and right, without sin and the devil to begin with? Ever wondered this?
The answer is discovered in the very nature and character of God. God is being true to himself for his good pleasure. His ways are perfect. He is wiser than us. Isaiah 66:22 and Revelations 21:1-4 state that God's plan involves a new heaven and earth as the old order will pass away. It will be a place where righteousness dwells, no sin, etc. We are living in the older. It takes time to remove dross — this demonstrates the fairness of God and displays his vast deep wisdom.
Psalm 12:6, “The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.” NKJV
And God said, let there be light and there was. God had it in mind all along and intended the new to be inhabited for his good pleasure. Law of thermodynamics will also change. Think on it a bit more.
The old will be removed so the new can replace, and thus the new established forever: no sin, no sickness, no death, etc. Perfect arrives perfected perfectly. All God's ways are perfect.
God wanted the new to be inhabited, but with whom? How can God create and not be fair to those he intends to live with? Should God deny them wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, splendor, and avoid any possible chance that these may turn on God himself and use his own nature as a tool to conceive and perform sin?
Should not a perfect just God stop this and avoid it? How can God be all powerful if he did? Would not God fear and thus not be perfect and not all powerful by not being able to control all things that can happen? God cannot deny who he is. His ways are perfect. He is all powerful.
Should God not instead let those he intends to live with have wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and splendor learn responsibility that these carry on their own? This would match his just nature and demonstrate equity sublime, Job 34:10-17.
Job 37:23-24; “The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice and great righteousness, he does not oppress.” NIV
In this God foresaw sin, the beginning to the end all in one split second of time knowing full well, his special beings will fall into temptation that could corrupt their wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and splendor. This demonstrates God's all knowing nature. He foresees who will and who will not and created them all anyway. God is fair!
He even made a plan to restore some that fall in such a perfect manner that it will astound all with the beauty of its equity, justice, and righteousness displayed. In this God proves himself, fair, righteous, just, merciful, all powerful, all knowing, all wise, etc and etc. He will perfect those restored, preparing them for their future habitation.
For those that will refuse of their own accord, God justly prepares their future habitation banished from God - Banished from a God so good, so fair, so just, so holy, so loving, so kind, so righteous, etc and etc as they desired and proved by their manner of life that they corrupt. Yes, God test the hearts. He judges. He foreknows corruption will never enter the new heavens and earth and makes it so, justly and rightly. How?
It would be the beings own accord to use their wisdom, knowledge, intelligence, and splendor as they desire. God designed them this way, a design that permits responsibility to be of their-own accord. Why? So that God remains true to himself: the author of life and not the author and father of sin. James 1:12-18 Proving God fair, loving, and kind; Proving God all powerful and wise.
Job 36:3-12, Job 36:22-26, Psalm 9:16-19, Psalm 11:4-7. Psalm 14:2, John 3:5-6, John 3:15-21, Romans 8:18-39, Ephesians 2:6-9, Job 40:1-8, Job 42:1-6
God is true to himself and all creation, angels, humanity - all were created for God's good pleasure, will, purposes. God proves himself to none other than himself that he is all that he is. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me and past finding out. Glory to God and Amen!
Let's continue and finally go to Genesis 1:26-31 and ponder our beginnings.
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
Genesis continued From June 16, 2006 post...
PL - I'll answer your thread as soon as I can... not quite finished yet...
....I had to go through all this background so we can actually look at how God's foreknowing and predestination allows certain things to be. Next time I post I hope to explore how God designed man, and how a God who knows all, sees all, is everywhere, did not stop mans fall. Why and how the devil was planned to be in the garden. What was God up too?
This brings us to how and why an all knowing perfect God created human beings the way we are, and knowing full well we would fall away from God. How could a sovereign God permit this? Should God not have done it another way? Is God at fault for sin and death? Is God asleep at the wheel or divinely in control in ways we don't fully grasp?
God decreed, “And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' and God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Gen 1:26-28 JPS/KJV
Notice the word image, reflection, semblance, used in various translations as well as the word translated as 'likeness.' These imply not a direct carbon copy but more as a representative — a reflection of God likeness. Not another God, not a carbon copy of God but rather a reflection of God on earth in order to tend and keep it. A reflection, if you will, managing the affairs of life on earth as God would the universe: or as humanity entrusted with the responsibility to manage God's earth and its affairs of life under God's direction.
Next, to be able to do this, humanity needs intelligence, wisdom, knowledge, the ability to learn, ability to reason, and the ability to think independently, and be responsible towards what God decreed here. These are also reflections, lower reflections, of God's nature and character too. These are a gift from God. God gave these to humanity which proves He is perfect, right, just, fair, sovereign, all powerful, all wise, all that He is.
If God did not, then he would not be God. Think on this for awhile. Of course God could have designed us like ants — robotic in nature but how could a righteous, loving, merciful, gracious, just, all powerful God do so and remain true to his nature of being? Would not God have been afraid of foreseen outcomes — thus negating proving he is in Charge? God cannot deny himself.
God calls those things that are not as though they are the bible tells us. When God created the universe and earth — he had a plan; to make it perfect. We are living in the process now. Do not believe me? Read Revelations 21. Why the long arduous process? Answer, because God, for his good pleasure, reveals all He is throughout the process: His wisdom made manifest, His total sovereignty proved, that He is a God of the living and He is all that He is, as I have been stating throughout this discourse.
God is not afraid of foreseen outcomes. He is not afraid of making intelligent and reasoning beings, angels and humanity. He test and refines the design. He is actively involved in what he has created, proving to Himself that He is truly the great 'I Am.'
Herein is a great truth that I reluctantly grant you — God cannot deny himself. This is how the devil became 'the devil' and how sin entered the world of men. Somewhere between Genesis 1:1-31 God must have created angels. There was a war in heaven as Revelations 12:7-9 states. When it occurred, I do not know but it did happen.
How else was the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Genesis 3:1-15, Ezekiel 28:13-19, and Isaiah 14:12-15 state? The devil drew a third of the angels with him? Where was the all knowing, all powerful, sovereign God Most High? Didn't he foresee this? Could he not have stopped it and avoided all the pain, sin, and death? How could the devil get away with this, rebelling?
Job chapter 1 reveals an answer if you are wise enough to see it. Turn to Job 1:6-12. In verses 6-8 we read the account of Satan coming to test, not just Job, but God himself. Satan accuses God of putting a hedge about Job. The devil is attempting to trap God. This is the wisdom that the old covering cherub corrupted as Ezekiel 28:17 so states. What wisdom is that? Well, the knowledge of the fullness of God — that God cannot deny who he is. This is not weakness but rather perfect strength. God is perfect!
Why would the Lord God create such a being, knowing beforehand that it would turn into an evil being? Ezekiel 28:15 reveals more. That covering guardian Cherub was created perfect until wickedness was found within that being. This again shows how sovereign God is. God is fair and will do right and permit things to happen that proves He is in charge. He foresaw the corruption happening. It would not have been perfect to stop it but rather it would be perfect to control it justly and fairly.
The devil knows that God is righteous, loving, merciful, gracious, just, etc, remaining true to his nature. He attempts to use this knowledge to trap God and overthrow God, Isaiah 14:13-14. He tries to make God a liar, unfair, unjust, unloving, etc, to raise his throne above God. He does so with Job, seeing Job's sin of self-righteousness, later revealed in closing chapters of Job, and saying in essence to God — “you are not that just and fair to let this pass, stretch out your hand against all Job has and Job will curse you.”
Job 2:1-7 again we see Satan trying to get God to violate his very nature and character but God has the last word — you cannot kill Job — his life must be spared. God is in charge. Even the devil had to obey. Then and there, the serpent lost. The devil was trying to get God to wipe Job out of existence. This would violate God's life giving nature. God cannot deny himself.
You see, Jesus tells us in John 8:44 the devil is a lair and murder — not God. God instead brings life to them that hear His word — His call — His decree, John 8:51, John 10:28-29.
The devil murders: Slays families, relationships, everything a man/woman has, slays homes, children, flocks, crops, nations, slays with disease, destruction, and slays hope and dreams — anything to get one to curse God, Job 1:10-11, Job 2:4.
How does one curse God? Simple, like the devil, use God's nature and character as an excuse to remain living a lie, accusing God, and living to entrap God; to disprove who God is just as the father of lies does. How? Misusing the nature and character of God for ones own advantage. God truly test the heart!
God has a moral law — which is none other than himself, his nature, his character revealed. God foresaw the challenge, the hate, the slaughter, but let it happen to prove that He is all that He is — fair to all, righteous to all, just to all, loving to all, behaves perfectly to all, exercises profound judgment, exhibits a fair and equitable wrath when needed. He is slow to anger, 2 Peter 3:6-14 — which display what about God?
You see, the devil knew this about God, knowing that God would not kill him, not deny the very life granted to him, not zapping him into a state of non-existence. To do so would cause God to deny the life granted. That was indeed a big chance the serpent took. God could certainly zap into a state of non-existence but God, being God, chose not too, which again proves what about God?
Instead, God remains control, thwarting the devil at every turn. Justly proving who and what sin is, what rebellion is, and in the end — not zapping the devil and his followers into a state of non-existence but rather into a lake of fire, forever. He is incredibly more sovereign than we ever realized! Wiser, more just, more righteous, more even handed, than the human mind can even conceive!
God will not deny life to those he made intelligent with the ability to reason of their own accord; attempting to be supreme, tempt God to deny himself by how they live, slaughtering others hopes, dreams, ways, and means. The bible says, in Deuteronomy 5:11 “Thou shalt not take the name [character] of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.” KJV/JSP
How can God justly hold anyone guilty who takes, misuses, His Name if God made, predestine, some to take His name in vain. You see — if so, as many argue that God does capriciously predestine/elect some for hell — God would end up denying Himself, His word, His own law, and He himself would be guilty of taking His own name in vain! [Note: Name represents one's character]. God cannot deny Himself. What would God do?
God designed the independent mind. This absolves God of being unjust, unrighteous, unloving, and unfair and definitely not the creator of sin. Sin remains the creatures own. However, God still made the creature and thus justly has the last word regarding their fate. God demonstrates responsibility.
God will give with great justice what they deserve — fire and wrath everlasting — justly, fairly, even handedly, righteously so those who freely returned back to God can see and never repeat rebellion again, Revelations 22:11-17 — these verses reveal what about God — his nature and character?
God is not afraid of foreseen outcomes — proving He is in Charge. God cannot deny himself. [A Mystery: Job 42:13 ]
Genesis 1:26, God made man in his image and likeness, reflecting God's nature and character on earth. Let us not lose our salt nor let our lamps shining in a dark world go out, Romans 8:1-39. You do have a purpose.
God foresaw the fall in the Garden of Eden proving what about God? More on this, next time…
Truly; God, all his ways are perfect, converting the soul. What can remain perfect if the imperfections are not removed first? Psalm 18:30-31, Psalm 19:7-14, Psalm 12:6-7.
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PL - I'll answer your thread as soon as I can... not quite finished yet...
....I had to go through all this background so we can actually look at how God's foreknowing and predestination allows certain things to be. Next time I post I hope to explore how God designed man, and how a God who knows all, sees all, is everywhere, did not stop mans fall. Why and how the devil was planned to be in the garden. What was God up too?
This brings us to how and why an all knowing perfect God created human beings the way we are, and knowing full well we would fall away from God. How could a sovereign God permit this? Should God not have done it another way? Is God at fault for sin and death? Is God asleep at the wheel or divinely in control in ways we don't fully grasp?
God decreed, “And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' and God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Gen 1:26-28 JPS/KJV
Notice the word image, reflection, semblance, used in various translations as well as the word translated as 'likeness.' These imply not a direct carbon copy but more as a representative — a reflection of God likeness. Not another God, not a carbon copy of God but rather a reflection of God on earth in order to tend and keep it. A reflection, if you will, managing the affairs of life on earth as God would the universe: or as humanity entrusted with the responsibility to manage God's earth and its affairs of life under God's direction.
Next, to be able to do this, humanity needs intelligence, wisdom, knowledge, the ability to learn, ability to reason, and the ability to think independently, and be responsible towards what God decreed here. These are also reflections, lower reflections, of God's nature and character too. These are a gift from God. God gave these to humanity which proves He is perfect, right, just, fair, sovereign, all powerful, all wise, all that He is.
If God did not, then he would not be God. Think on this for awhile. Of course God could have designed us like ants — robotic in nature but how could a righteous, loving, merciful, gracious, just, all powerful God do so and remain true to his nature of being? Would not God have been afraid of foreseen outcomes — thus negating proving he is in Charge? God cannot deny himself.
God calls those things that are not as though they are the bible tells us. When God created the universe and earth — he had a plan; to make it perfect. We are living in the process now. Do not believe me? Read Revelations 21. Why the long arduous process? Answer, because God, for his good pleasure, reveals all He is throughout the process: His wisdom made manifest, His total sovereignty proved, that He is a God of the living and He is all that He is, as I have been stating throughout this discourse.
God is not afraid of foreseen outcomes. He is not afraid of making intelligent and reasoning beings, angels and humanity. He test and refines the design. He is actively involved in what he has created, proving to Himself that He is truly the great 'I Am.'
Herein is a great truth that I reluctantly grant you — God cannot deny himself. This is how the devil became 'the devil' and how sin entered the world of men. Somewhere between Genesis 1:1-31 God must have created angels. There was a war in heaven as Revelations 12:7-9 states. When it occurred, I do not know but it did happen.
How else was the serpent in the Garden of Eden as Genesis 3:1-15, Ezekiel 28:13-19, and Isaiah 14:12-15 state? The devil drew a third of the angels with him? Where was the all knowing, all powerful, sovereign God Most High? Didn't he foresee this? Could he not have stopped it and avoided all the pain, sin, and death? How could the devil get away with this, rebelling?
Job chapter 1 reveals an answer if you are wise enough to see it. Turn to Job 1:6-12. In verses 6-8 we read the account of Satan coming to test, not just Job, but God himself. Satan accuses God of putting a hedge about Job. The devil is attempting to trap God. This is the wisdom that the old covering cherub corrupted as Ezekiel 28:17 so states. What wisdom is that? Well, the knowledge of the fullness of God — that God cannot deny who he is. This is not weakness but rather perfect strength. God is perfect!
Why would the Lord God create such a being, knowing beforehand that it would turn into an evil being? Ezekiel 28:15 reveals more. That covering guardian Cherub was created perfect until wickedness was found within that being. This again shows how sovereign God is. God is fair and will do right and permit things to happen that proves He is in charge. He foresaw the corruption happening. It would not have been perfect to stop it but rather it would be perfect to control it justly and fairly.
The devil knows that God is righteous, loving, merciful, gracious, just, etc, remaining true to his nature. He attempts to use this knowledge to trap God and overthrow God, Isaiah 14:13-14. He tries to make God a liar, unfair, unjust, unloving, etc, to raise his throne above God. He does so with Job, seeing Job's sin of self-righteousness, later revealed in closing chapters of Job, and saying in essence to God — “you are not that just and fair to let this pass, stretch out your hand against all Job has and Job will curse you.”
Job 2:1-7 again we see Satan trying to get God to violate his very nature and character but God has the last word — you cannot kill Job — his life must be spared. God is in charge. Even the devil had to obey. Then and there, the serpent lost. The devil was trying to get God to wipe Job out of existence. This would violate God's life giving nature. God cannot deny himself.
You see, Jesus tells us in John 8:44 the devil is a lair and murder — not God. God instead brings life to them that hear His word — His call — His decree, John 8:51, John 10:28-29.
The devil murders: Slays families, relationships, everything a man/woman has, slays homes, children, flocks, crops, nations, slays with disease, destruction, and slays hope and dreams — anything to get one to curse God, Job 1:10-11, Job 2:4.
How does one curse God? Simple, like the devil, use God's nature and character as an excuse to remain living a lie, accusing God, and living to entrap God; to disprove who God is just as the father of lies does. How? Misusing the nature and character of God for ones own advantage. God truly test the heart!
God has a moral law — which is none other than himself, his nature, his character revealed. God foresaw the challenge, the hate, the slaughter, but let it happen to prove that He is all that He is — fair to all, righteous to all, just to all, loving to all, behaves perfectly to all, exercises profound judgment, exhibits a fair and equitable wrath when needed. He is slow to anger, 2 Peter 3:6-14 — which display what about God?
You see, the devil knew this about God, knowing that God would not kill him, not deny the very life granted to him, not zapping him into a state of non-existence. To do so would cause God to deny the life granted. That was indeed a big chance the serpent took. God could certainly zap into a state of non-existence but God, being God, chose not too, which again proves what about God?
Instead, God remains control, thwarting the devil at every turn. Justly proving who and what sin is, what rebellion is, and in the end — not zapping the devil and his followers into a state of non-existence but rather into a lake of fire, forever. He is incredibly more sovereign than we ever realized! Wiser, more just, more righteous, more even handed, than the human mind can even conceive!
God will not deny life to those he made intelligent with the ability to reason of their own accord; attempting to be supreme, tempt God to deny himself by how they live, slaughtering others hopes, dreams, ways, and means. The bible says, in Deuteronomy 5:11 “Thou shalt not take the name [character] of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.” KJV/JSP
How can God justly hold anyone guilty who takes, misuses, His Name if God made, predestine, some to take His name in vain. You see — if so, as many argue that God does capriciously predestine/elect some for hell — God would end up denying Himself, His word, His own law, and He himself would be guilty of taking His own name in vain! [Note: Name represents one's character]. God cannot deny Himself. What would God do?
God designed the independent mind. This absolves God of being unjust, unrighteous, unloving, and unfair and definitely not the creator of sin. Sin remains the creatures own. However, God still made the creature and thus justly has the last word regarding their fate. God demonstrates responsibility.
God will give with great justice what they deserve — fire and wrath everlasting — justly, fairly, even handedly, righteously so those who freely returned back to God can see and never repeat rebellion again, Revelations 22:11-17 — these verses reveal what about God — his nature and character?
God is not afraid of foreseen outcomes — proving He is in Charge. God cannot deny himself. [A Mystery: Job 42:13 ]
Genesis 1:26, God made man in his image and likeness, reflecting God's nature and character on earth. Let us not lose our salt nor let our lamps shining in a dark world go out, Romans 8:1-39. You do have a purpose.
God foresaw the fall in the Garden of Eden proving what about God? More on this, next time…
Truly; God, all his ways are perfect, converting the soul. What can remain perfect if the imperfections are not removed first? Psalm 18:30-31, Psalm 19:7-14, Psalm 12:6-7.
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
God decreed, “And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' and God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Gen 1:26-28 JPS/KJV
God created man in His image — a reflection of God's divine nature and character. Within this reflection, we have the attributes of wisdom, intelligence, reason, the ability to think on our own, to create, and be creative. We are by no-means carbon copies of God. We cannot create out of nothing. We are not God or Gods but his creatures, created for the purpose of God's good pleasure. We instead reflect a lower portrait of God's nature and character assigned to govern the affairs of life on earth; tending and keeping life maintained in a wise, evenhanded, intelligent way.
God granted us dominion over the earth and its animal/plants inhabitants and to replenish the earth and sub-due it. God made humans with intelligence to be able to perform this task. This proves what about God? He is fair, righteous, just, and truly loves. Even though humanity has the ability to turn against God, God still permits this reasoning intelligence to exist. He is truly God and cannot deny himself. He proves who He is.
God is steering all things to a final goal as stated in Revelations 21. In this steering, he is proving himself all that he is. If you ponder this more, you'll soon grasp that this process was the wisest course of action to take. Allowing special created beings to be able to reason and think on their own still proves that God is more Sovereign, more all powerful, more righteous, holy, pure, just, merciful, wise, more all knowing, than we can conceive. You will fall in love with God more and more while you contemplate and ponder his greatness!
Who else but God would permit independent thought? Even when being able to foresee the consequences of this independence corrupting some of these beings, God still created for his good pleasure!
You see, as I stated before, God proves himself; all that he is, in the design. He designed humanity to think and reason independently. This independence, he tests. In the Garden of Eden he tested man and woman and proved himself God.
To be Continued…
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God created man in His image — a reflection of God's divine nature and character. Within this reflection, we have the attributes of wisdom, intelligence, reason, the ability to think on our own, to create, and be creative. We are by no-means carbon copies of God. We cannot create out of nothing. We are not God or Gods but his creatures, created for the purpose of God's good pleasure. We instead reflect a lower portrait of God's nature and character assigned to govern the affairs of life on earth; tending and keeping life maintained in a wise, evenhanded, intelligent way.
God granted us dominion over the earth and its animal/plants inhabitants and to replenish the earth and sub-due it. God made humans with intelligence to be able to perform this task. This proves what about God? He is fair, righteous, just, and truly loves. Even though humanity has the ability to turn against God, God still permits this reasoning intelligence to exist. He is truly God and cannot deny himself. He proves who He is.
God is steering all things to a final goal as stated in Revelations 21. In this steering, he is proving himself all that he is. If you ponder this more, you'll soon grasp that this process was the wisest course of action to take. Allowing special created beings to be able to reason and think on their own still proves that God is more Sovereign, more all powerful, more righteous, holy, pure, just, merciful, wise, more all knowing, than we can conceive. You will fall in love with God more and more while you contemplate and ponder his greatness!
Who else but God would permit independent thought? Even when being able to foresee the consequences of this independence corrupting some of these beings, God still created for his good pleasure!
You see, as I stated before, God proves himself; all that he is, in the design. He designed humanity to think and reason independently. This independence, he tests. In the Garden of Eden he tested man and woman and proved himself God.
To be Continued…
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B. W.
- Ultimate Member
- Posts: 8355
- Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
- Christian: Yes
- Location: Colorado
Yes! and so very true as we shall soon see...R7-12 wrote:Consider…
One of the greatest miracles of all is the fact that God will bring those whom He calls to repentance, obedience, redemption, salvation and entrance into the very family of the Living God Himself — all while our free will is left completely intact!
R7-12
Also, I offer this insight on this forum freely and can use it as you will, all I ask if you use it please acknowledge me in your quotes: B. W. Melvin, Bryan W. Melvin — Author of book: A Land Unknown: Hell's Dominion. This way, I take responsibility for what is written and not you as James 3:1 states.
The Main Point:
“And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' and God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them. God blessed them; and God said unto them: 'Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that creepeth upon the earth.” Gen 1:26-28 JPS/KJV
Dominion is a strange word. God gave humanity dominion over the earth. This key word is so neglected in the predestination verses free will debate that it isn't surprising we remain locked in a theological struggle over the dominion of competing religious ideas; free will verses predestination, once saved always save verses falling away, God's omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, verses human will and the existence of evil.
Why God granted mankind dominion, as well as what dominion really involves, answers this debate without question. However, we remain in the dark, clouded with human-centric notions about dominion that we all fail to note the importance of it as it pertains to God and how he designed human beings. We cannot help this; after all, we live after the fall of mankind subjugated in a struggle of wills.
In order to be granted dominion involves the ability to rule, exercise authority, to have a say so in how things are to get and be done. To be granted dominion involves a measure of independent reason in order to use it properly. Therefore, here in Genesis, it tells us how we humans were made, and granted a gift from God to have dominion. This displays what about God's nature and character — his own moral law? Is it any wonder the bible boldly proclaims, 'God test the heart?'
As stated and repeated often, in prior discourses, 'God test the hearts.' God test those he entrusts with certain domains that require degrees of dominion. To do this, requires granting a design that allows latitudes in ones reasoning ability. God let Adam name the animals Genesis 2:19-20 as well as gave Adam the authority to tend and keep the Garden, Genesis 2:14. God even gave man his own image too which is to reflect what?
This proves God is true to himself by granting liberty of thought. God foreknows everything and can guide liberty minded creatures like ourselves as he wills based on his foreknowing. This displays God's all powerful nature, his righteous, holy, pure, just, merciful, wise, loving nature and character which in turn is in reality, his moral law which is the means of how God exercises his sovereign dominion over all creation.
Origin Of Evil — a Brief review:
Ezekiel 28:12-13, it states God granted a degree of dominion to a certain covering Cherub, Ezekiel 28:14-19, who became filled with violence due to this dominion it was entrusted with. This creature saw how to twist and bend God's moral laws in order to get away with rebellion against God.
Again in Isaiah 14:12-19, we see that God tested this beings heart. What was the nature of the test? Answer, dominion — “For you said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of God” Isaiah 14:13 NKJV.
Why? Why did God permit this, foreseeing all the terrible woe and cost that would come when an eternal being would go astray by misusing, misrepresenting, and misguiding God's moral nature and character i.e. God's moral laws? Answer: God test what he makes.
To deny the choices involved with granting dominion to those God creates would cause God to break his own moral law, deny his true nature and character even when God foresaw it all happening. To stop it would mean violating the precept, 'Thou shall not commit murder' which is in essence is extinguishing life into a state of non-existence. God gave a gift of life that he will not extinguish it into non-existence, though he could but his moral law, his nature and character would have to be denied to do so.
This is not a position of weakness as some may like to argue. It is a position of strength as God is all knowing, and all powerful. He sees the beginning to the end and remains in control steering life towards it true and final goal: the new heavens and earth revealing all that he is to all and proving himself true to himself, Job 34:12-36.
God has a plan, a course, to restore the order of all creation at a future time. Within this frame of time, God will prove who he is and establish his dominion in the most extreme fair, even handed, just, righteous, loving, merciful, manner all in accordance to his nature and character — his own personal moral law which will with such longsuffering lead to God displaying his wrath in an extremely fair, even handed, just, righteous, manner at an appointed hour, 2 Peter 3:8-18.
The question is — can God trust one to exercise dominion and not overstep their boundaries? God foreknew those who will and those that will not and assigned them a place in the scheme of time according to where they fit best. Some were made angels and others, humanity. In this, and through this, God will prove himself true to himself and all that he is.
Next Frame...
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