Evidence for God from Science

Words for your sister, Gman...

"Pay heed to the grievances of the reed
Of what divisive separations breed
From the reedbed cut away just like a weed.....

Whoever who fell away from the source
Will seek and toil until returned to course"

(lines from The Reed Flute by Molana Jalal-e-Din Mohammad Molavi Rumi)

Although you accuse yourself of rambling, I certainly found that an interesting account of your sister's brush with Sufism.

Even in her case, with a love of Rumi's poetry, it sounds as though she was attracted to the external trappings of religion rather than the real message hidden under those trappings.

I believe that, given we are created in His image, we have a "God-shaped hole" within us that has us looking to find what it is that fits that hole - a hole, or gap, or vacuum, shaped attraction, or call it what you will. He is the source of our being, and while we are separated from source - "divisive separations breed" - we are given to seek and toil until we find Him and allow ourselves to be filled by Him. Only then is there rest for our souls.

Matthew 11:28-30 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Yes to humility. In the brilliant light of His all-seeing gaze I discover myself to be everything that He is not, and know that I need His redemption - the salvation bought by Christ on the cross. No other religion offers the solution that so perfectly matches the situation. Until there is an appreciation of our own abject unworthiness and sin, there is no truly perceived need for a saviour. To stand brazenly before Him in our arrogance mocks His greatness and glory - and He will not be mocked.

And now I am rambling too.

Judah wrote:Yes to humility. In the brilliant light of His all-seeing gaze I discover myself to be everything that He is not, and know that I need His redemption - the salvation bought by Christ on the cross. No other religion offers the solution that so perfectly matches the situation. Until there is an appreciation of our own abject unworthiness and sin, there is no truly perceived need for a saviour. To stand brazenly before Him in our arrogance mocks His greatness and glory - and He will not be mocked.

And now I am rambling too.

No please ramble on... I'm in total agreement with you on that, "No other religion offers the solution that so perfectly matches the situation." This is one of the most overpowering things about God that we as humans tend to forget I think. I feel sometimes sad that God is often portrayed as a villain.. What I want to let the atheists know is that God is NOT your enemy. He does not want to see harm come to people, and is sad to see them get hurt.. I quess I don't understand why so many people reject him, (like my sister). I just don't get it... He is the liberators of all liberators, the saviour of all saviours...

Ok, anyways I see you like poetry, thanks for sharing that by Rumi. So... I thought I would share this poem by Helen Steiner Rice.

Love is much more than a tender caress and more than bright hours of happiness,

For a lasting love is made up of sharing both hours that are joyous and also despairing.

It's made up of patience and deep understanding and never of stubborn or selfish demanding.

It's made up of climbing the steep hills together and facing with courage life's stormiest weather.

And nothing on earth or in heaven can part a love that has grown to be part of the heart.

And just like the sun and the stars and the sea, this love will go on through eternity,

For true love lives on when earthly things die, for it's part of the spirit that soars to the sky.

Oops, I fear we are in danger of turning this into a poetry thread!

C2 began this thread with a poll as presented by MSNBC seeking responses to their question "How do you view Islam?" It appeared that negative perceptions were increasing. The link to the story no longer works - it has probably expired.

One of the interesting things (er, that I found to be interesting) was the lack of love mentioned in the Qur'an compared with the Bible, except for a very conditional love on the part of Allah but otherwise a "do what you're told or I'll tear your head off" (I think it was KMart who put it something like that) response to his followers.

One of the greatest love stories is that of the relationship between God and the Soul as described in the Old Testament's Song of Songs. Love is the very nature of God, the ultimate reason for everything He does. It is also the ultimate purpose of our own lives - to love God, to worship and glorify Him, and as lovers do, to enjoy Him for ever.

Peter Kreeft, a professor of Philosophy at Boston College, a Christian author of over 40 books, in looking at the Song of Songs picks out 19 things that Love is - and here I quote one of them that seems to me something completely ignored, diametrically opposed, by Islam.

Love is free and cannot be compelled, even by omnipotence. The bride asks the groom to "draw me after you" (1:4), not to pull, push, or carry her. The one thing even God cannot do is force us to love Him. How much less can we force each other. God will seduce our souls, but He will not rape them. Love and force are contradictories. Thus the groom repeatedly cautions us, "I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem [audience], that you stir not up nor awaken love until it please" (2:7, 8:4).

Kreeft, Peter, You Can Understand the Bible, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2005.

How do I see Islam? I see it with horror, a huge and hungry fearsome loathsome thing. I see it that way, not just by the acts of terrorism by militant Muslims, but by what I read in the Qur'an that flies in the face of the love I see and know of God, our triune Creator Father God.