Evidence for God from Science

andyredeemed wrote:Sorry if the above seemed a bit flippant. I realize there are wider issues within this, but I wonder: Is the church being built by such discussions? has anyone been built up by it all? If we could do a poll of those who have followed this thread, whether they posted a reply or not, would they come away from it with more assurance, or less? So we don't want people to be uninformed, or to harm God's cause with bad doctrine. I think Jesus is bigger than doctrinal differences, and salvation, if it hinges on such finely-split hairs, is a lot less sure than I think I could cope with. How could I keep hope alive under such a burden?
There is a thread of reasoning that runs through John's gospel, one phrase leads to the next:"No-one has greater love than this: That he lay down his life for his friends", "You are my friends if you do as I command", "This is my commandment: That you love one another. As I have loved you, so should you love each other."

andyredeemed wrote:Sorry if the above seemed a bit flippant.

There is a thread of reasoning that runs through John's gospel, one phrase leads to the next:"No-one has greater love than this: That he lay down his life for his friends", "You are my friends if you do as I command", "This is my commandment: That you love one another. As I have loved you, so should you love each other."

Jac3510 wrote:BW, I don't have any suggestions on paragraphs or actual text or whatever. I just think that you should clearly distinguish between the EVENT of justification and the PROCESS of sanctification. Both are by grace, in their own way; both have different ideas, and you cannot let your hearers think that the aspects of sanctification are involved in justification. If you do, they will have the wrong idea about justification, and then you will never get anything other than moralistic disciples who are as lost as Hitler ever was.

So, yes, there is a difference in the grace of justification and the grace of sanctification. Don't mix the two. I would suggest deciding WHO the article is directed at. If to believers, then assure them of their justification based on their belief in Jesus' promise (i.e., John 6:47), and then go on to talk about the need to press on to maturity. If, though, you are writing to unbelievers, let the sanctification issue rest until they have come to believe the justifying proposition. If you just feel you HAVE to have more (although I wonder why the Gospel wouldn't be enough???), use Eph 2:10 to mention what we are saved FOR. Naturally, just because a person doesn't do what they are supposed to do as a Christian doesn't make them any less saved, nor are good works guaranteed in the life of any believer. But if you want them to know this salvation is for a purpose, then that may be a good way to break down the article…

zoegirl wrote:I have a BIG problem with the ideas presented here. If you HAVE to have more?! Although I wonder why the Gospel wouldn't be enough?! Oy! Yes, If it were simply unbelievers, then presenting doctrinal terms would be unrealistic. HOWEVER, I feel that too many churches ignore the doctrine of sanctification, and, as such, fail to equip believers with the tools necessary and thus promote new believers failing to root, as in the parable of the seeds. So many churches seem to present such a diluted view of living as a Christian that I wonder if the church is sometimes being the stumbling block for these growing Christians.

Jac3510 wrote: because I think it has some great truths in it about the conditionality of sanctification. Do note, BW, that the chapter is full of exhortations to do things. We have a choice in that matter. We don't in salvation. We either believe Jesus' promise or we don't! Also, please note that not one chapter later, Paul is confessing that his flesh is still sold under sin, and because of that he finds himself habitually in the same sins. His conclusion: thank God for the future resurrection, and because of THAT, there is NO CONDEMNATION to those in Jesus.

zoegirl wrote:Please clarify "conditionality of sanctification", because to me, if I am reading you correctly, then I do disagree here. While sanctification does not make us perfect, it is Christ working in us to be more Christ-like. What sort of grace does Christ give us if it does not enable us live in Him and sanctify us? A choice in the matter? Not clear, clarify please, in relation to the above conditionality.
"Nor are good works guaranteed in the life of a believer?" ?! If Christ cannot guarantee a change in us, then He is not much of a savior. My savior conquered death, He can surely effect changes and will effect changes in believers. We are a new creation...
Sanctification is a process, and no, it does not make us perfect, but it is a process. "He is the author and perfector of our faith"

zoegirl wrote: If Christ cannot guarantee a change in us, then He is not much of a savior. My savior conquered death, He can surely effect changes and will effect changes in believers. We are a new creation... Sanctification is a process, and no, it does not make us perfect, but it is a process. "He is the author and perfector of our faith"

YLTYLT wrote:B.W.,
as well as others.......

I have question about a scenario.
For instance, take a person that had prayed to Christ for salvation. But lets say that there life had no outwardly visible change, and they do not ever get into the word to study it and are still living in with a worldly focus.

But lets say that this person several years later starts going to church on a regular basis. There life may change a little, but they still have somewhat of a worldly focus.

Then this person through the process of going to church decides to be baptized. Possibly then a little bit less worldly, but still not a significant change.

Then this person is fortunate enough to find a great teacher, that explains the Gospel clearer than you had ever understood. And then life changed significantly after that. My passion to learn the Bible increased, (but of course this could have a lot to do with the teacher and his ablity to transfer truth).

(of course, assuming that an actual salvation did occur for this person)

From the scenario above, at what point did salvation occur? At the first prayer or after there was a clear understanding and a significant change in life. Or sometime in between.

YLTYLT wrote:From the scenario above, at what point did salvation occur? At the first prayer or after there was a clear understanding and a significant change in life. Or sometime in between.