Evidence for God from Science

BavarianWheels wrote:

Mastermind wrote:So the Creator making a day holy is for his own "enjoyment" in a world that He's creating for some of His creation?

You should know better than to ask a mere mortal to give you reasons for God's actions.

What exactly does it mean for something to be holy?

Holy=Irrelevant?

Given no specific instructions from God, and given the fact that the jews' interpretation was wrong(as you yourself stated), I assume God left it up to me to do what feels right. You certainly can't prove I have to do anything special on that day.

An interesting latter statement when taking into account the former...don't you think?
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Hardly. I'm not asking you to tell you God's reason for making us keep the Sabbath the way the Jews did. I'm asking you to tell me exactly what supposedly applies to me, along with biblical reference to it. I don't want the why, as that question implies that this statement of God's exists when it does not.

BavarianWheels wrote:We are not freed from law but rather freed from condemnation that comes through law. The law is holy and righteous.

I agree with Bav on this one. But I think you guys are all off track; looking at it from the wrong angle.

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: “ 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

OK, so in Jesus' words, the ENTIRE law (not the Law less the Sabbath) rests on these two commandments. So out of simple love for the Lord we ought to set aside a special day for the purpose of honoring and praising Him, and also for the purpose of fellowship and support with other believers, which of course is a manifestation of our love towards our neighbours.

I believe that God understands our nature, and the real reason for the Sabbath is to have a day that we will set aside for the purpose of strengthenning our faith and our walk with Him. With the stresses and daily routine of life it's very difficult to remain focussed on Him. Honestly, I have enough trouble getting to church as it is; how much more difficult would it be if we had never recognized a day for this purpose?

So in the end, I liken it very much to something like drinking... Obviously it's not a requisite for salvation, but at the same time ignoring the Sabbath is a bad idea and you'll likely have a much more difficult go of it than if you're sure to at least have one day set aside to grow in the Lord.

BavarianWheels wrote:So by me choosing to abstain from murder or any of the 10 I am reverting back to "weak and miserable principles"?

I don't know whether you're purposely ignoring all I've said, just glimming over my words, or what... however, allow me to provide an analogy (which hopefully you'll take the time read and understand) to help clarify things.

Consider traffic and road laws in two different states. In one state, the default speed limit in residential areas may differ, as might blood alcohol limits. Additionally, some road rules in one state may not exist in the other, and there would at the same time be an agreement between the two in many ways.

Now the first covenant with all its laws and rituals for Israel is one set of laws. This leads to frustration and condemnation rather than hope and salvation, for noone can be made righteous by observing the law. The second covenant is different from the first, in that it is not based on law, but based upon grace through Christ. Both still exist, except when one comes to Christ they are under the second covenant, and so the first covenant no longer applies!

Now what of murder? Well just like different states can have the same principles and laws, so can the first (old) and second (new) covenants. Just because the law, including the command not to murder, were done away with in the first covenant, this does not mean that murder is now acceptible under the new covenant. For Christ made clear two commandments which fulfill all the law. Love God, and love each other. Paul also deals with this in Romans 6 where after detailing a salvations by grace through faith doctrine, thereby dismissing the law as impotent to save, he answers the questions, "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" and "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?" Scripture is clear, and as the verses I previously provided reveal, the law is no longer applicable to those who are saved by grace through faith in God.

Hebrews 8:13—
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

2 Corinthians 3:14—
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

BW wrote:Are you now telling me that what God wrote with His own finger is "weak and miserable principles"??? Or could it possibly be speaking of something other than specifically the 10 commandments?

Now you're twisting Paul's words I quote. Words he was using to get across that they're weak and miserable because they don't do anything except condemn us.

2 Corinthians 3:6—
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Hebrews 8:7-8—
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

BW wrote:We are not freed from law but rather freed from condemnation that comes through law. The law is holy and righteous.

Law is holy and righteous, but the law condemns. I'd recommend going back and reading the passages I quoted, rather than simply ignoring them, getting all hot-headed, and responding without thinking about what I've provided. I'm beginning to conclude that you don't really care to listen to reason from Scripture, unless it suits your pre-existing beliefs...

BW wrote:Seems to me the condemnation is of sin and not the law...the law's requirements are holy and righteous. It seems to me to call them "weak and miserable principles" is not correct according to scripture.

If you read my words more carefully rather than simply rushing to man your guns, you'd see that "weak and miserable principles" IS FROM SCRIPTURE in the GALATIANS 4:9-11 passage I quoted. It is only a twisted of the meaning of these words you've attacked to avoid the inevitable implications of them. You can ignore Scripture if you want, but let it be made plain the words you challeged were entirely derived from Scripture!

Kurieuo

I agree the words come from scripture...my contention is whether those words are directed specifically to that which came from God's own hand.

If you choose to see me as "manning my guns" vs. your interpretation, then I cannot help the voice you attribute to my words...it is difficult to convey voice via written words for one not well versed in conveying a thought without causing ruffled feathers on a subject so heatedly debated as the Sabbath (/religion).

The fact remains that there is no directive that replaces the Sabbath or nullifies it's place as a holy day set apart by God Himself...and not by a man or a Church. It was instituted at creation, written into the commandments by God Himself and even in His death, Christ "rested" the seventh day, Christ even mentions it as a specific for the last days prior to His return...and not for reasons to "not incite the Jews" as God directed the hands that wrote..."there is no Jew or Gentile" All are one in Christ.

I believe the texts I have mentioned have been ignored...they make it plain that the law of God (specifically the 10) are relevant and binding to the Christian. Not for salvation, but because of salvation. We serve from the heart and mind and not by a list of do's and don't's. It's not a check list, but a way of life. The sinner saved by grace through faith does not live according to the sinful nature...it cannot please God...but lives according to the spirit...the texts given prior point this out.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV wrote:Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Just like our kids when they come of age are no longer under our supervision, however if we've been good parents, or kids remember and follow the "rules of life" taught while they were children.

It goes exactly as the proverb states: "Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it." Prov. 22:6 NIV
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Felgar wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:We are not freed from law but rather freed from condemnation that comes through law. The law is holy and righteous.

I agree with Bav on this one. But I think you guys are all off track; looking at it from the wrong angle.

I disagree in the extreme, both logically, and Scripturally. Anyone who reads Galatians and much of Paul's epistles shouldn't be able to miss Paul spending a lot of time espousing that we a "free" from law (as I hope might have become evident from the many passages I've been quoting). In order to be freed from condemnation, we have to be free from law. If we're not freed from law, then we will be judged by law! How you can believe one and not the other I do not understand. However, I believe the problems you guys might have with this being freed from law is answered by Paul in Romans 6 where he poses and answers the question: "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

Kurieuo.

Kurieuo wrote:

Felgar wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:We are not freed from law but rather freed from condemnation that comes through law. The law is holy and righteous.

I agree with Bav on this one. But I think you guys are all off track; looking at it from the wrong angle.

I disagree in the extreme, both logically, and Scripturally. Anyone who reads Galatians and much of Paul's epistles shouldn't be able to miss Paul spending a lot of time espousing that we a "free" from law (as I hope might have become evident from the many passages I've been quoting). In order to be freed from condemnation, we have to be free from law. If we're not freed from law, then we will be judged by law! How you can believe one and not the other I do not understand. However, I believe the problems you guys might have with this being freed from law is answered by Paul in Romans 6 where he poses and answers the question: "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

Kurieuo.

If you are given a ticket for speeding and go to see the judge and the judge decides to grant you grace for the ticket and removes the judgement against you for speeding...are you then "freed" from the law of keeping to the posted speed limits the rest of your life?

You've certainly been "freed" from the law...or more specifically...the consequences of breaking the law, but hardly have you been "freed" from ever having to heed the speed laws again.

Is God's law eternal or temporary?

God wrote, "Have no other gods before me..." Is that only temporary?

God wrote, "Don't misuse my Name."

Is that also temporary and now "ok" to do since it has all been nailed to the cross?

This is the logical outcome of the promotion of "freed from the law" as interpreted by you...and not only you, but many others too!

We are freed from the consequence that the law brings. That being death as no person has ever kept the law perfectly as God expects one that would be saved through the law! Christ came and paid the price for our sin which does not remove the law, but the consequence!

Christ redeemed us from the condemnation that comes through the law...not the law itself! If the law has truly been "nailed to the cross" as some interpret that to mean, then why aren't Christians allowed to murder?

Christians cannot say out of one side of their mouth that they "are freed from law" and out the other..."well...we don't murder because it is wrong..."

If the law is done away with, there is no law against murder anymore in God's eyes and it is no longer wrong.
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BavarianWheels wrote:I believe the texts I have mentioned have been ignored...they make it plain that the law of God (specifically the 10) are relevant and binding to the Christian. Not for salvation, but because of salvation. We serve from the heart and mind and not by a list of do's and don't's. It's not a check list, but a way of life.

I completely agree. We respect the law because we're saved, not in order to be saved.

Address this point Kurieou, as it goes right along with my earlier post which you completely ignored. Remember as Jesus made clear: the Law rests on love for the Lord. You really don't think that observing a day of rest for the purpose of focussing on God is not a natural extension of the greatest commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts and souls and minds? If not, why not?

This is not Directed at anybody but when one talks about the Law what do you mean? Is it the FULL Law? Levitical, Mosaic etc...

Here are some passages to chew on just so we can understand instead of relying on our own interpretation

Exd 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Exd 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

Exd 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exd 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.


Again this is not on either side but just to give us some insight in scriptures

Thanks
Tim

bizzt wrote:This is not Directed at anybody but when one talks about the Law what do you mean? Is it the FULL Law? Levitical, Mosaic etc...

Specifically the 10 and only the 10 as they are the only law written by God's own hand. I figured that was quite plain when referring to my stance.

bizzt wrote:Here are some passages to chew on just so we can understand instead of relying on our own interpretation

Exd 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Exd 16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

Exd 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exd 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exd 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant.


Again this is not on either side but just to give us some insight in scriptures

Thanks
Tim

Are we Christians heirs according to the promise given to Abraham or heirs according to some different promise?
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God made no promise to us before Jesus as far as I remember.

Mastermind wrote:God made no promise to us before Jesus as far as I remember.

What? And you arguing against this without knowledge of the promise? How about the promise given to Abraham? Was not Abraham credited with righteousness because of faith or was it because he kept the law?
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Kurieuo wrote:Hebrews 8:7-8—
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

God found fault with what/whom? Certainly wasn't the law.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Mastermind wrote:God made no promise to us before Jesus as far as I remember.

What? And you arguing against this without knowledge of the promise? How about the promise given to Abraham? Was not Abraham credited with righteousness because of faith or was it because he kept the law?
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The jews are descendants of Abraham. God made His covenant with him, not the rest of the world. I see no mention of either faith or law.

RSV
1: When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless.
2: And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly."
3: Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him,
4: "Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations.
5: No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.
6: I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you.

JKV
1: And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
2: And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3: And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4: As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5: Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6: And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

NIV
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty ; walk before me and be blameless.
2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him,
4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.
5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
6 I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you.

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Romans 4: 1-3

Romans 4: 13

Galatians 3: 6-9

Galatians 3: 14

Galatians 3: 16-18 ---carefully read and notice: "The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

The law doesn't set aside the covenant or the promise.
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I am asking you for references as to why I, a non-jew, is bound by the covenant made with an ancestor that is not mine.