Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:

jenna wrote:Is it really up to me to prove it? There has been no evidence, other than "the solar year calendar" to prove otherwise. And since the evidence is only about years and months, it would be not up to me to prove otherwise.

Well yes. It would be up to you to prove it since you're the one making the claim it has been kept perfectly from the beginning of time and therefore should be kept now on that basis.

Are you familiar with the history of the calendar?

Simply ask a Jew...who have been keeping the same day for thousands of years.
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B. W. wrote:Jenna, I commend people for keeping the Sabbath which is good and noble. No problem with that no matter what day they choose to honor God. As it is written:

Colossians 2:1617, “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”

Are you obeying what is written?

Quite a good text...however it proves nothing of what you might hope.

Ask yourself if you've given up on food and drink? This text no more does away with the Sabbath as it does away with food and drink. Apparently the food and the drink are the main point of this text...and not THE Sabbath...but A sabbath.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:

jenna wrote:Is it really up to me to prove it? There has been no evidence, other than "the solar year calendar" to prove otherwise. And since the evidence is only about years and months, it would be not up to me to prove otherwise.

Well yes. It would be up to you to prove it since you're the one making the claim it has been kept perfectly from the beginning of time and therefore should be kept now on that basis.

Are you familiar with the history of the calendar?

Simply ask a Jew...who have been keeping the same day for thousands of years.
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I agree for the Jews it goes back thousands of years.

That wasn't my point.

Can it be tied to 24 hour creation days and shown to never have been broken and maintained to our current 7 day cycle?

Canuckster1127 wrote:Can it be tied to 24 hour creation days and shown to never have been broken and maintained to our current 7 day cycle?

No. Creation did not occur in 7 24hr days...that's not the point either. The point is when or what God made holy.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

B. W. wrote:Jenna, I commend people for keeping the Sabbath which is good and noble. No problem with that no matter what day they choose to honor God. As it is written:

Colossians 2:1617, “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.”

Are you obeying what is written?

Quite a good text...however it proves nothing of what you might hope.

Ask yourself if you've given up on food and drink? This text no more does away with the Sabbath as it does away with food and drink. Apparently the food and the drink are the main point of this text...and not THE Sabbath...but A sabbath.
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The point appears to be one of legalism with regard to eating of food and drink offered to idols and/or kosher laws as well as the legalistic keeping of particular days and the Sabbath.

I have no problem with anyone maintaining what they believe to be right in terms of their own conscience and worship. I have a great deal of problem when others seek to belittle other Christians or question their faith because they don't agree with them on a particular point like this and establish a form or legalism or works-based faith.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have no problem with anyone maintaining what they believe to be right in terms of their own conscience and worship. I have a great deal of problem when others seek to belittle other Christians or question their faith because they don't agree with them on a particular point like this and establish a form or legalism or works-based faith.

Have I belittled you? If I have...forgive me. I have no problem with those that believe different from me, but I thought we were just discussing our different points. If I've overstepped, forgive me.

I've noticed that you are open...thx for that.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have no problem with anyone maintaining what they believe to be right in terms of their own conscience and worship. I have a great deal of problem when others seek to belittle other Christians or question their faith because they don't agree with them on a particular point like this and establish a form or legalism or works-based faith.

Have I belittled you? If I have...forgive me. I have no problem with those that believe different from me, but I thought we were just discussing our different points. If I've overstepped, forgive me.

I've noticed that you are open...thx for that.
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I don't think he meant you, BMW, I think he may have meant me. And I agree with him, because I have been belittled and been called heretical simply because I hold different views than others.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I have no problem with anyone maintaining what they believe to be right in terms of their own conscience and worship. I have a great deal of problem when others seek to belittle other Christians or question their faith because they don't agree with them on a particular point like this and establish a form or legalism or works-based faith.

Have I belittled you? If I have...forgive me. I have no problem with those that believe different from me, but I thought we were just discussing our different points. If I've overstepped, forgive me.

I've noticed that you are open...thx for that.
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It wasn't directed to you personally or anyone else. It was simply a general observation.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:

jenna wrote:Is it really up to me to prove it? There has been no evidence, other than "the solar year calendar" to prove otherwise. And since the evidence is only about years and months, it would be not up to me to prove otherwise.

Well yes. It would be up to you to prove it since you're the one making the claim it has been kept perfectly from the beginning of time and therefore should be kept now on that basis.

Are you familiar with the history of the calendar?

Simply ask a Jew...who have been keeping the same day for thousands of years.
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BavarianWheels - My link in last post was to a Jewish website...

Next, Even the Jewish people realize that no one knows how long the first days of creation really lasted as the Sun and Moon did not come into being till later to even mark a Solar or Lunar year!!!

I am glad that people worship on the Sabbath - Saturday if a person so wills based on his/her faith — that is excellent!! However, we all should never condemn if another observe another day as it is written, for we are not under Law but under grace. Gal 5:18, “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

We are called to love one another [walking in God's Spirit] and thus keep the real royal law of love which fulfills all requirements of the law.

Worship on what day you so like Saturday - no condemnation from me!

No one knows how long the first days of creation really lasted as the Sun and Moon did not come into being till later to even mark a Solar or Lunar year!!! We all have broken the Sabbath Law.

We are under Grace not Law....
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We are under grace not law? Hmm. Where exactly do you get this idea? So if I kill you (hypothetically) then if I have already accepted Christ, I'm still saved? With no need to repent?

jenna wrote:We are under grace not law? Hmm. Where exactly do you get this idea? So if I kill you (hypothetically) then if I have already accepted Christ, I'm still saved? With no need to repent?

He gets the idea from the Scripture passages he just quoted to you.

jenna wrote:We are under grace not law? Hmm. Where exactly do you get this idea? So if I kill you (hypothetically) then if I have already accepted Christ, I'm still saved? With no need to repent?

Matthew12:5-8, “Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6 I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7 And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Mark 12:29-31, "Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." --[Note: This would Include the Sabbath]--

Romans 13:8, "Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law."

Romans 13:10, "Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

Galatians 5:14, "For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Ephesians 4:15, "Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ..."

Ephesians 2:4, “But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved—“

Ephesians 2:8-9, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Galatians 2:16, "yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified."

Romans 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."

Galatians 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”

Galatians 3:1-3, “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?”

Titus 3:9-11, “But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

All Scripture quotes from ESV
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The scriptures he quoted me have no bearing on being saved by grace. Again, we are not under the curse of the law, but faith, or grace, without works is useless. Being under grace is not a license to sin. And what is sin? Sin is the trangression of the law. No, we are not saved by works alone, but through the blood of Christ. He died so that we were forgiven for our sins. Does this mean we should continue in sinful ways? I am no exception to this, I sin daily. I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be. But when I do sin, I repent and move forward, and try not to. When the adulterous woman was going to be stoned for her actions, Jesus forgave her, and He also told her "Go, and SIN NO MORE."

I trust that certain rituals are good for our belief and knowing him. It may sound like Catholic; we are fleshly and weak, prone to fall to transgression so we need certain kind of disciplines that guide our behavior.


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jenna wrote:The scriptures he quoted me have no bearing on being saved by grace. Again, we are not under the curse of the law, but faith, or grace, without works is useless. Being under grace is not a license to sin. And what is sin? Sin is the trangression of the law. No, we are not saved by works alone, but through the blood of Christ. He died so that we were forgiven for our sins. Does this mean we should continue in sinful ways? I am no exception to this, I sin daily. I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be. But when I do sin, I repent and move forward, and try not to. When the adulterous woman was going to be stoned for her actions, Jesus forgave her, and He also told her "Go, and SIN NO MORE."

Mark 12:29-31, "Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

1 John 3:4, "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness."

What Law is John referring too? Why…

1 John 3:23-24, "And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

Note Context of Chapter Three - read it in context sometime…

1 John 3:1, “See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

1 John 5:1-3, “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.”

What was Christ Commandment? You read it already…

Mark 12:29-31, "Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Matthew 22:40, "On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

So in the light of scripture -- 'sin' is the transgression of what law? which in fact produces lawlessness...

It far easier to obey ritual and quote traditions as the means to prove ones' love and devotion to God, however, obeying rituals and quoting traditions cannot love another.

1 John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness..."

And no Jen, we do not sin that grace abounds — we repent because he first loved us. Living repentance becomes the natural act of a true born again Christian who loves God with all his/her being…
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