Evidence for God from Science

Canuckster1127 wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Are you suggesting that if the Dietary Laws are no longer in effect by ordinance of God that there's some benefit spiritually to keeping them anyway on a simple level of obedience?

I'm suggesting your statement of the dietary laws being followed is good "just from a perspective of good health." is wrong. The one verse talks about at least two other reasons we should care for our body. I wouldn't rule out God's dietary precepts as outside this.

Also...if a person keeps these dietary laws for the reason set forth in 1 Cor. 6:19, then for them it is of spiritual benefit...and keeping them on a level of simple obedience can and does mean we care for our body and invite the HS to dwell in a "more clean" body and we honor God in making his precepts important to us.

Does this make for a better Christian? Humanly speaking, probably. Ultimately...no, since all our good deeds are as filty rags in God's sight.

Better question is; Are you suggesting not following the dietary laws is better than following them?
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Fair enough. I wasn't seeking to be precise in my comments and if your objection is that there could be another valid reason for eating Kosher, than good health which would or should induce a Christian to follow them than I'll accept that.

If you don't want to answer my question as to what that might be, that's fine.

I think good health is as valid a reason as any other, because I believe the dietary laws are no longer in effect for the Christian and therefore any appeal to follow them on a basis of personal holiness in the sense of making the body more fit for the HS to reside is moot.

I'm not suggesting that following or not following dietary laws is better. I'm not even asking the question since I don't believe there's a basis to ask it on given that those laws are no longer in effect.

I thought I did answer your question. If I didn't, I'm unclear on what your question is.

What I hear you saying is that since the dietary laws are "no longer" in effect for the Christian (they never were as a means for salvation) you throw them out as "moot". I dare not charge God's precepts as moot. That's to say God made these laws for no other reason than just to make a law(s).
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The original Mosaic law contained, commandments, ordinances and judgements. As I have pointed out, the ordinances have been done away with. Also, the word "law" as translated into the English from the Hebrew in a number of places, has caused confusion, because the Hebrew words for "law" and "custom" are virtually identical; yet one means law and another means customs or ordinances. Leviticus 11 is speaking of law.

A law can be defined as the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people. The authority that authorized the Biblical law was God the Father. Leviticus 11 is addressed to both Moses and Aaron, so that they would present it to the children of Israel. The children of Israel today are those who believe in Christ, because once converted they are engrafted into the body of Christ and become a child of Abraham.

If one part of the Biblical law has been done away with, then it has all been done away with. The commandments which make up that law are certainly still binding. And the judgements which make up the law are as well. If they weren't applicable, then I'd believe that heaven and earth have somehow passed away. But Jesus says:

Matt 5:18, For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth certainly have not passed away. That is the statement in the above verse that claims until that condition happens, the law is still binding.

Do we need the law any longer? We establish the law as far as the parameter, and areas of our lives that we live in. The law then is the fence that we build around each of us. It becomes the dos and don'ts that we set up to follow, and it is our conscience that become the watchman to keep us within the bounds of that fence.

The law deals with our common sense that lets us know when we are overstepping the bounds that we create for ourselves, only you personally set those bounds for your life, based on the Word of God. God's Word sets the standards that we build our fences around, so it is not our own selfish nature that is used for these standards. The deeper we get into the Word, the more the size and shape of that fence around our lives will change. Then in our spiritual maturity, sin becomes our personal violation of the laws, common sense, and our own conscience.

If someone wants to document where the "law" has been done away with, than please document scripture, backing up your claim. I have not found anything Christ said or did or anything that the apostles claim in the New Testament that contradicts the statement made by Jesus about the law in Matt 5: 17-19. Maybe different churches teach that it is done away with (because I know many which do), maybe the church fathers from the first centuries of the first millenium believed that the law is done away with and taught subsequent generations. The bottom line is what the Word says, otherwise we are making our own suppositions to back up individual claims about the law, to justify our position.

I don't believe what the churches supposedly claim about the Bible and the law. Instead, I believe what the Bible teaches about the churches and the law.

Katabole wrote:If someone wants to document where the "law" has been done away with, than please document scripture, backing up your claim. I have not found anything Christ said or did or anything that the apostles claim in the New Testament that contradicts the statement made by Jesus about the law in Matt 5: 17-19. Maybe different churches teach that it is done away with (because I know many which do), maybe the church fathers from the first centuries of the first millenium believed that the law is done away with and taught subsequent generations. The bottom line is what the Word says, otherwise we are making our own suppositions to back up individual claims about the law, to justify our position.

I don't believe what the churches supposedly claim about the Bible and the law. Instead, I believe what the Bible teaches about the churches and the law.

Section One:

Rom 10:4 - For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

1Co 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Gal 2:21- I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

Gal 3:24-26 - So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith

Gal 5:4 - You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace


Section Two:

Hab 1:4 - So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth. For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted.

Zep 3:4 - Her prophets are fickle, treacherous men; her priests profane what is holy; they do violence to the law.

Gal 5:14 - For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Rom 13:10 - Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 13:8 - Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Mat 5:18 - For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Question: has the royal law of love been accomplished yet? When will it?

John 15:12-14 - "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.


Section Three:

Gal 5:18 - But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Gal 5:22-23 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Phi 3:8-9 - Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith

Heb 7:12 - For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Rom 9:31 - but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law.

Rom 9:32 - Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone...

Titus 3:9 - But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Now where the confusion arises regarding the Law was Why the Law? What was God's Purpose for the Law?
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BW, thank you for your reply.

I completely understand that we are living under a dispensation of grace, given to us by God through the death of his only Son and not the dispensation of the law.

I know since all of you are Christian, you believe that adultery for example, is wrong.

But how do we know if adultery is wrong, if it isn't portrayed as being wrong in the law?

How could I possibly know right from wrong if there wasn't truth that was shown me that it actually is?

In other words, if the law has been done away with and I committed adultery, why would I even want to ask Jesus for forgiveness? I should be able to do whatever I want because I am saved by grace and there is no need to ask for forgiveness for something that is evidently done away with.

BW, you said:

Now where the confusion arises regarding the Law was Why the Law? What was God's Purpose for the Law?

Wasn't the law simply a way of showing us the difference between what was right and wrong for us to do while we live on this earth?

Even Paul says in the New Testament that he wouldn't know what sin was if it wasn't for the law.

Therefore, since the law explains the do's and don'ts of what to and what not to do while we live, it must still be binding, for if we break the law which we all do, and we realize that we did wrong by the Holy Spirit convicting us through the law, seared in our conscience, then we can pray to God and ask forgiveness through Christ. Otherwise, there is no reason at all to ask for forgiveness because Christ already saved us.

The danger in believing that the law has been done away with, is that it gives Christians a licence to practice any immorality and believe that God forgives them, even if they don't specifically ask Christ for forgiveness.

And I believe that's summed up when Jesus says:

Matt 5:17, Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy...

If He didn't come to destroy the law, then it it is simply not destroyed. But God knowing that none of us, could keep the law perfectly, showed us a better way, by forgiveness through Christ.

I don't refer to the NIV Bible that often, only to use some of the footnotes, but according to the footnotes on the Nicolaitans in Revelation it says:

They'd apparently reached a compromise with the pagan society and began to preach that spiritual liberty gave them license to practice idolatry and adultery. (NIV notes)

If I was a Christian that believed the law was done away with, I'd probably think like a Nicolaitan, because I'd believe that Christ forgave me for everything I did, so it wouldn't matter what kind of behavior I exhibited.

But what does Christ say about the Nicolaitans:

Rev 2:6, But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate. (KJV)

Rev 2:15, So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.

I believe God hated the Nicolaitans because their spiritual path was guided by believing that the law was nullified by Christ's death and the behavior that resulted from believing this, essentially mocked God.

If you do believe the law was indeed done away with, then why ask for forgiveness through Christ? What convicts a person of sin, for them to ask forgiveness in the first place, if it is not the Holy Spirit convicting a person that they broke the Biblical law?

KAtabole, you brought up adultery, but let's examine how Chirst approached this topic.

If we went solely by the law, we knew that sleeping with somebody is wrong.

But Christ exposed the real purpose of the law, which was to reveal to us how unclean our *hearts* our, not simply our actions. He addressed that it wasn't simply avoiding sleeping with somone but avoiding looking at someone lustfully and having that lust in our hearts.

So the law here is actually not enough to address the actual problem, the lust in our hearts.

The law adressed murder specifcally and yet Christ once again addressed the fact that to call anyone fool has a murderous heart.

And THAT"S the whole key to CHrist establishing a new covenant, a covenant based on HIM and our understanding of our hearts.

"Love the Lord you God with all of your mind, heart, and soul"

"Love you neighbor" these are the two commandments that really encompass ALL of the other laws!! And it is through Christ and his power that we are free to obey and have the power to do so.

I agree with you Zoegirl, Jesus certainly expanded on the law. For me, adultery is the same as stealing, the same as lying, the same as murder, the same as breaking the Sabbath, the same as coveting, the same as eating animals that God never intended us to eat. They are all sins, meaning transgressions of the law or breaking the law. And your right, Jesus said to love God and love your neighbour as yourself. Jesus generalized the law into two simple statements. I think most people know how to fulfill part two, loving your neighbour as yourself. But part one, loving God, is said simply by Jesus. If you love me, keep my commandments. Those commandments are generalized by the ten commandments but there are more than those 10. What commandments are there? There are many, including do not murder, do not lie, do not steal, do not covet, do not commit adultery and do not eat animals that God commanded us not to eat. To know something is wrong, being convicted by God through the Word of truth that it is wrong and then to blatantly commit it, is well:

2Pet 2:20, For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (KJV)

I can say I love God, but if I regularly steal from others is that really loving God and fulfilling Jesus' commandment to love God? I can say I love God, but if I lie all the time, is that really loving God? And I can say I love God but if I eat animals He never intended me to eat, is that loving God? I think not. That's not keeping the commandments. That's deliberately breaking them.

Lying, stealing, coveting and eating unclean animals for example are not going to affect one's salvation, as long as one repents. But please don't say that it's ok to eat animals God never intended us to eat, which He made clear in the law that we were not to, just as He made it clear in the law that we were not to murder. That's like saying lying and stealing are absolutely right.

I think it is somehow wrong to think that the food issue(that led to the expulsion of the couple in the garden)that robbed humanity of eternal life can be counted as no issue before God.Honestly.If God was concerned about them eating outside prescription then I believe that He shall forever be concerned about what humanity eats and salvation is partly hinged on food.

oscarsiziba wrote:I think it is somehow wrong to think that the food issue(that led to the expulsion of the couple in the garden)that robbed humanity of eternal life can be counted as no issue before God.Honestly.If God was concerned about them eating outside prescription then I believe that He shall forever be concerned about what humanity eats and salvation is partly hinged on food.

You should probably argue that with Jesus.

Matt 15:11 "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

Salvation "partly" hinged on food? That's like being just a little bit pregnant. Either it does or it doesn't. If it does then salvation is no longer on the basis of grace.

What a sad existence that would be.

Then we can eat any and everything,yes everything/Why not that 'other' creature and yes the rest/If we of corrupt nature know what is good and bad for us,does God not have a final say on what our table has to contain and not?
Keeping the commandments of God is never grievous(1 John 5 v3) and David actually says those that walk in them are happy and free,just as I am.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

oscarsiziba wrote:I think it is somehow wrong to think that the food issue(that led to the expulsion of the couple in the garden)that robbed humanity of eternal life can be counted as no issue before God.Honestly.If God was concerned about them eating outside prescription then I believe that He shall forever be concerned about what humanity eats and salvation is partly hinged on food.

You should probably argue that with Jesus.

Matt 15:11 "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

Salvation "partly" hinged on food? That's like being just a little bit pregnant. Either it does or it doesn't. If it does then salvation is no longer on the basis of grace.

What a sad existence that would be.

I hardly think Jesus' meant that eating unclean food is "now" healthy...but rather his meaning is exactly as He said...it is what comes out of the mouth that DEFILES the man. In other words...it's his heart that makes him clean or unclean. Had nothing to do with whether food was healthy or not.

The fact remains that God doesn't arbitrarily make up laws "just for the sake of making a law"...there is purpose and meaning. Whether we take God at His word or not is up to us and we bear the consequences in this life.

Salvation never hinged on food. It is exactly as the NT says...through faith Abraham was credited righteousness. I think oscar might be alluding to something, not meaning exactly that salvation hinges on food. It certainly played a major part in the Garden of Eden.
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BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:

oscarsiziba wrote:I think it is somehow wrong to think that the food issue(that led to the expulsion of the couple in the garden)that robbed humanity of eternal life can be counted as no issue before God.Honestly.If God was concerned about them eating outside prescription then I believe that He shall forever be concerned about what humanity eats and salvation is partly hinged on food.

You should probably argue that with Jesus.

Matt 15:11 "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

Salvation "partly" hinged on food? That's like being just a little bit pregnant. Either it does or it doesn't. If it does then salvation is no longer on the basis of grace.

What a sad existence that would be.

I hardly think Jesus' meant that eating unclean food is "now" healthy...but rather his meaning is exactly as He said...it is what comes out of the mouth that DEFILES the man. In other words...it's his heart that makes him clean or unclean. Had nothing to do with whether food was healthy or not.

The fact remains that God doesn't arbitrarily make up laws "just for the sake of making a law"...there is purpose and meaning. Whether we take God at His word or not is up to us and we bear the consequences in this life.

Salvation never hinged on food. It is exactly as the NT says...through faith Abraham was credited righteousness. I think oscar might be alluding to something, not meaning exactly that salvation hinges on food. It certainly played a major part in the Garden of Eden.
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The Old Testament also says that Gentiles are unclean. God declared them (us unless you're Jewish) as Clean. Further There are ample passages in the New Testament where Gentiles are now Clean and the analogy drawn to show that declaration is "unclean" food.

How do those of you wishing to adhere to the OT Biblical Laws feel about Gentiles? Are you consistent?

I think Oscar can speak for himself and he seems to be very clear as to what he believes the basis of his salvation is.

Canuckster1127 wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:

oscarsiziba wrote:I think it is somehow wrong to think that the food issue(that led to the expulsion of the couple in the garden)that robbed humanity of eternal life can be counted as no issue before God.Honestly.If God was concerned about them eating outside prescription then I believe that He shall forever be concerned about what humanity eats and salvation is partly hinged on food.

You should probably argue that with Jesus.

Matt 15:11 "It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man."

Salvation "partly" hinged on food? That's like being just a little bit pregnant. Either it does or it doesn't. If it does then salvation is no longer on the basis of grace.

What a sad existence that would be.

I hardly think Jesus' meant that eating unclean food is "now" healthy...but rather his meaning is exactly as He said...it is what comes out of the mouth that DEFILES the man. In other words...it's his heart that makes him clean or unclean. Had nothing to do with whether food was healthy or not.

The fact remains that God doesn't arbitrarily make up laws "just for the sake of making a law"...there is purpose and meaning. Whether we take God at His word or not is up to us and we bear the consequences in this life.

Salvation never hinged on food. It is exactly as the NT says...through faith Abraham was credited righteousness. I think oscar might be alluding to something, not meaning exactly that salvation hinges on food. It certainly played a major part in the Garden of Eden.
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The Old Testament also says that Gentiles are unclean. God declared them (us unless you're Jewish) as Clean. Further There are ample passages in the New Testament where Gentiles are now Clean and the analogy drawn to show that declaration is "unclean" food.

How do those of you wishing to adhere to the OT Biblical Laws feel about Gentiles? Are you consistent?

I think Oscar can speak for himself and he seems to be very clear as to what he believes the basis of his salvation is.

Gentiles have always been clean as evidenced by the Gentiles living among the Israelites.

Speaking of consistency...do you uphold all 10 commandments...or just 9? Let's not fling words of consistency around if we're not willing to take God consistently at His only written word.

Oscar can speak for himself...I was making an "intelligent" assumption and offered it up. Oscar is free to correct me.
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Hello everyone,
Well it's taken me a while to catch up, but I've finally read through everything! I thought that I would share a thought that I had when thinking about the topic of clean and unclean foods. Whenever I am searching scripture and find something that I'm not quite sure on, I ask myself...would our Lord and Savior do this and did he do this. As for the clean and unclean foods, this is a question that I began to wrestle with about 4 years ago. I dug into scripture and tried my hardest to find an answer. But the biggest thing that influenced my decision was that question..."what did Messiah do, and what would He do if he were in the world today?" He is our example in everything we do...

"the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked" -1 John 2:6

"For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps -1 Peter 2:21

Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. -1Corinthians 11:1

Now I've told this to people before and they get all roused up and say, "so since Jesus was a carpenter, are you saying we should all go out and become carpenters?!?" When the bible says we should walk in his footsteps, it means we should act, think, and have a heart like Christ according to what scripture says. So my answer is no, we don't have to go out and become carpenters because scripture doesn't tell us to. But don't let that stop you from becoming a carpenter if you so desire

If you look at the life Messiah Yeshua lived then you will know what I believe on this matter.

The ten commandments and the other laws and other ordinances are all very well and good....but again, Christ consistently and repeatedly challenged the current understanding of the law.

The law reveals sin, the law reveals how utterly dependent we are to CHrist for our salvation.

He also revealed that the law as presented in the OT is really summed up in those two commandments.

"LOve the Lord your God" and "LOve your neighbor"

Any one of those ten commandments can be followed "by the letter"...."Gee, did I commit adultery today?" "Gee, did I murder anybody today?" "DId I say anything bad to my parents?" "Did I work on the Sabbath?" "Did I make and worship an idol?"

BUT these laws can be quite crippling when MISUNDERSTOOD and lead to not only legalism but a warped view of the law.

Christ challenged us on these commandments and turned these questions around....

"Have I lusted today?" (ie, what is the condition of my heart? Am I loving my neighbor?")

"HAve I honored my brother and sister in my words and attitude?" (instead of murdering, what are your thoughts?....Are you loving your neighbor?")

INstead of just one day....are we honoring God with our thoughts and hearts and reflecting how HE designed us every day?
"Am I loving GOd?"

Do we have the right attitude and love our parents?

See, all of these laws are simply extensions of those two very simple commands that Christ upheld in the NT...."LOve you neighbor and LOve the LOrd"


Again, if the law DOESN"T SAVE, then what is the motivation for following these rules...

Is it just to check off one by one some list?

OR IS IT MORE IMPORTANTLY, UNDERSTANDING THE MEANING BEHIND THE LAWS....TO BE CALLED APART, TO BE GOOD STEWARDS OF OUR BODIES (BORNE FROM UNDERSTANDING HIS CREATION....) , A TEMPLE FOR HIM...


And BTW really, again, NOBODY has provided any sources, save one BBC article that referenced no UNBIASED scientific support for the idea that those foods in and of themselves are unhealthy.

We keep going around and around in circles....

leviticus 11 wrote:Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. 32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. 33 If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. 34 Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. 35 Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. 36 A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. 37 If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. 38 But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.

39 " 'If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass will be unclean till evening. 40 Anyone who eats some of the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.

SInce the argument always seems to come back to the fact that the rules about clean and unclean are valid but we can discard the rest of leviticus (revolving around the semantics of law versus ordinances), I suppose you must follow those rules above. Again, I ask you, if you don;t then WHY don't you?



Canuckster has said it great....if you wish to follow them...great....

zoegirl wrote:The ten commandments and the other laws and other ordinances are all very well and good....but again, Christ consistently and repeatedly challenged the current understanding of the law.

The law reveals sin, the law reveals how utterly dependent we are to CHrist for our salvation.

Agreed...however correctly understanding the law hardly negates or abolishes the law.

zoegirl wrote:He also revealed that the law as presented in the OT is really summed up in those two commandments.

"LOve the Lord your God" and "LOve your neighbor"

...as pointed out many times, the 10 can be divided into these two. 1-4...how to love your God, 5-10...how to love your neighbor.

zoegirl wrote:Any one of those ten commandments can be followed "by the letter"...."Gee, did I commit adultery today?" "Gee, did I murder anybody today?" "DId I say anything bad to my parents?" "Did I work on the Sabbath?" "Did I make and worship an idol?"

BUT these laws can be quite crippling when MISUNDERSTOOD and lead to not only legalism but a warped view of the law.

Agreed.

zoegirl wrote:Christ challenged us on these commandments and turned these questions around....

"Have I lusted today?" (ie, what is the condition of my heart? Am I loving my neighbor?")

"HAve I honored my brother and sister in my words and attitude?" (instead of murdering, what are your thoughts?....Are you loving your neighbor?")

INstead of just one day....are we honoring God with our thoughts and hearts and reflecting how HE designed us every day?
"Am I loving GOd?"

While I would agree our thoughts and hearts should reflect His design daily, He did set one day aside...and further mentioned in His own words to "remember". And I would agree with Yeshua's follower that Christ's example of living is on par with His wish for us all to follow. Fortunately since we can't follow perfectly, we've been afforded righteousness just like that of Abraham's righteousness...through faith.

zoegirl wrote:Do we have the right attitude and love our parents?

See, all of these laws are simply extensions of those two very simple commands that Christ upheld in the NT...."LOve you neighbor and LOve the LOrd"

Then we are in agreement. Christ also upheld all 10 exactly as Paul does in Romans 3.

zoegirl wrote:Again, if the law DOESN"T SAVE, then what is the motivation for following these rules...

The motivation is simply to follow in what God's wishes are as best we can realizing all that we do is filthy rags.

Better question to ask is what motivation do we have to do ANYTHING "good" if none of our works serve to save us? Following dietary laws have no salvific purpose just as keeping the Sabbath in and of itself has no bearing on salvation. But as oscarsiziba said, "Keeping the commandments of God is never grievous(1 John 5 v3) and David actually says those that walk in them are happy and free..."

zoegirl wrote:Is it just to check off one by one some list?

I think we both know this is not the point.

zoegirl wrote:OR IS IT MORE IMPORTANTLY, UNDERSTANDING THE MEANING BEHIND THE LAWS....TO BE CALLED APART, TO BE GOOD STEWARDS OF OUR BODIES (BORNE FROM UNDERSTANDING HIS CREATION....) , A TEMPLE FOR HIM...

Following the dietary laws certainly does set one apart...so does upholding all 10 Commandments instead of just 9 we "like" or fit in our own lifestyle/traditions.

zoegirl wrote:And BTW really, again, NOBODY has provided any sources, save one BBC article that referenced no UNBIASED scientific support for the idea that those foods in and of themselves are unhealthy.

I've read a few times that while the foods themselves can be seen as unhealthy, some have been studied and deemed "healthy" in our day and age. It may be that some of these precepts were put in place because the hygiene of the day couldn't support the types of problems eating some of the animals might present without proper care/cleaning/storage.

Once again, diet is not a requirement for salvation. It involves one's personal decision to abide or disregard in these laws. It is the same with the 10 Commandments.

zoegirl wrote:We keep going around and around in circles....

leviticus 11 wrote:Of all those that move along the ground, these are unclean for you. Whoever touches them when they are dead will be unclean till evening. 32 When one of them dies and falls on something, that article, whatever its use, will be unclean, whether it is made of wood, cloth, hide or sackcloth. Put it in water; it will be unclean till evening, and then it will be clean. 33 If one of them falls into a clay pot, everything in it will be unclean, and you must break the pot. 34 Any food that could be eaten but has water on it from such a pot is unclean, and any liquid that could be drunk from it is unclean. 35 Anything that one of their carcasses falls on becomes unclean; an oven or cooking pot must be broken up. They are unclean, and you are to regard them as unclean. 36 A spring, however, or a cistern for collecting water remains clean, but anyone who touches one of these carcasses is unclean. 37 If a carcass falls on any seeds that are to be planted, they remain clean. 38 But if water has been put on the seed and a carcass falls on it, it is unclean for you.

39 " 'If an animal that you are allowed to eat dies, anyone who touches the carcass will be unclean till evening. 40 Anyone who eats some of the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening. Anyone who picks up the carcass must wash his clothes, and he will be unclean till evening.

SInce the argument always seems to come back to the fact that the rules about clean and unclean are valid but we can discard the rest of leviticus (revolving around the semantics of law versus ordinances), I suppose you must follow those rules above. Again, I ask you, if you don;t then WHY don't you?

Canuckster has said it great....if you wish to follow them...great....

All of God's laws/ordinances are of choice. None are mandated as dictating saved or not saved. The person who lives by the truth comes into the light. (John 3:21) Who here says God is a liar and his Word is not true in regard to the dietary laws...and even the 4th commandment?

Canuckster1127 is right. If you wish to follow them...great...
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