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Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:57 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:And that just happened by chance, I guess. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, please point me to a study on that.
There you go with the "chance" thing again!
Google might help.
Well, you have not explained what governs gene drift.
If you cannot point me to a study that is fine. We will just stand with that incredible conclusion that Staphylococcus Aureus lost some function and turned into MRSA, without you demonstrating which genes mutated and acted on which proteins under which selective pressures.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:02 pm
by Sceptic
August wrote:Well, you have not explained what governs gene drift.
If you cannot point me to a study that is fine. We will just stand with that incredible conclusion that Staphylococcus Aureus lost some function and turned into MRSA, without you demonstrating which genes mutated and acted on which proteins under which selective pressures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/11/7687.full
SA didn't "lose function", it gained a useful gene which conferred methicillin-resistance.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:07 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:Well, you have not explained what governs gene drift.
If you cannot point me to a study that is fine. We will just stand with that incredible conclusion that Staphylococcus Aureus lost some function and turned into MRSA, without you demonstrating which genes mutated and acted on which proteins under which selective pressures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift
http://www.pnas.org/content/99/11/7687.full
SA didn't "lose function", it gained a useful gene which conferred methicillin-resistance.
From the first line of the Wikipedia article you submitted: "Genetic drift or allelic drift is the change in the relative frequency in which a gene variant (allele) occurs in a population
due to random sampling and chance" Oops. That does not really help your case, now does it?
Thanks for the second link, I will have to study that a bit on my own time.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:09 pm
by Sceptic
August wrote:From the first line of the Wikipedia article you submitted: "Genetic drift or allelic drift is the change in the relative frequency in which a gene variant (allele) occurs in a population due to random sampling and chance" Oops. That does not really help your case, now does it?
It makes no difference to "my" case, as natural selection is not random.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:18 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:From the first line of the Wikipedia article you submitted: "Genetic drift or allelic drift is the change in the relative frequency in which a gene variant (allele) occurs in a population due to random sampling and chance" Oops. That does not really help your case, now does it?
It makes no difference to "my" case, as natural selection is not random.
So random+non-random=non-random? Nonsense. The starting point is random chance, so everything after that is a result of random chance...no matter what selection mechanisms, intelligent or otherwise, is at work.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:26 pm
by Sceptic
August wrote:So random+non-random=non-random? Nonsense. The starting point is random chance, so everything after that is a result of random chance...no matter what selection mechanisms, intelligent or otherwise, is at work.
Define "random chance".
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:34 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:So random+non-random=non-random? Nonsense. The starting point is random chance, so everything after that is a result of random chance...no matter what selection mechanisms, intelligent or otherwise, is at work.
Define "random chance".
Ask your buddies who wrote the article.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:55 pm
by Sceptic
August wrote:Sceptic wrote:August wrote:So random+non-random=non-random? Nonsense. The starting point is random chance, so everything after that is a result of random chance...no matter what selection mechanisms, intelligent or otherwise, is at work.
Define "random chance".
Ask your buddies who wrote the article.
Well, I was asking you, but anyway, what's so wrong with randomness? We live in a random world, after all.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:00 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:Sceptic wrote:August wrote:So random+non-random=non-random? Nonsense. The starting point is random chance, so everything after that is a result of random chance...no matter what selection mechanisms, intelligent or otherwise, is at work.
Define "random chance".
Ask your buddies who wrote the article.
Well, I was asking you, but anyway, what's so wrong with randomness? We live in a random world, after all.
If we live in a random world, how can you know anything?
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:07 pm
by Sceptic
August wrote:If we live in a random world, how can you know anything?
Huh?
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:08 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:If we live in a random world, how can you know anything?
Huh?
Exactly. If your way of coming to know things is random, how do you know it?
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:11 pm
by Gman
Sceptic wrote:
It makes no difference to "my" case, as natural selection is not random.
Complete baloney.... Ever study biology before?
According to biologists, chance events (blind luck chance) can be described in genetic drift, gene flow, and even mutation in microevolution. Natural selection (a blend of chance and sorting), however, is the only mechanism that consistently leads to adaptive evolution.
“Genetic drift, gene flow, and even mutation can cause microevolution. But these are chance events, and only blind luck could result in their improving a population's fit to its environment. Evolution by natural selection, on the other hand, is a blend of chance and "sorting": chance in the random collection of genetic variation packaged in gametes and combined in offspring and sorting in that some alleles are favored over others. Because of this sorting effect, only natural selection consistently leads to adaptive evolution-evolution that results in a better fit between organisms and their environment.” Biology : Concepts and connections — Ch. 13.12, pg 269, 2008.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:11 pm
by Sceptic
August wrote:Exactly. If your way of coming to know things is random, how do you know it?
We are talking about genetic drift, not my way of coming to know things.
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:12 pm
by Sceptic
Gman wrote:Sceptic wrote:
It makes no difference to "my" case, as natural selection is not random.
Complete baloney.... Ever study biology before?
Yes I have, you?
Re: 4 truths to prove evolution is religious and not scientific
Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:13 pm
by August
Sceptic wrote:August wrote:Exactly. If your way of coming to know things is random, how do you know it?
We are talking about genetic drift, not my way of coming to know things.
You stated that we live in a random world.