Evidence for God from Science

kioku wrote:I don't mean to be blunt, but that doesn't exactly help me at all.

May I sugest then that you either are not ready or unwilling to be helped. Another possibility is that at some level you were helped but are refusing to acknowledge it (to yourself). Perhaps you will eventually but that usually takes time and patience, the former you may or may not have and the latter you seem to lack. People have been looking for a solid proof ever since Thomas thrust his finger in Jesus' wounds. The fact is a very tiny number of people get that special private revelation. The majority of us go on faith. So if you're looking for a solid proof to believe you might as well give up now. Sorry to be so blunt but that's just the way I see it.

This is all really said to me. You have a guy here who wants to believe but is having trouble with it, and all anybody keeps telling him to do is just "have faith" (yeah, that helps). This is no different from the "miracle workers" you see on TBN. They say they can heal you if you have faith. They win either way. You get "healed", they are right. You don't get "healed", they still are right. In the latter case, it isn't their fault. It's yours, because you just didn't believe enough.

Stupid.

Peter says we should be ready to give a REASON for what we believe. Paul says that we PERSUADE men. All I've seen is Kioku saying that he's read arguments and watched debates but that it hasn't helped, although some of the points are good, and people responding with the command to submit. But which points? Which debates? What has been said that isn't convincing and why? That conversation takes awhile, but if all anybody is going to say is, "Bah! JUST HAVE FAITH!" then everyone, you, me, and kioku, is wasting their time.

There is proof. Solid proof. Undeniable, irrefutable proof. But just because a proof is undeniable doesn't mean it is immediately obvious. Some things have to be explained. Once explained, then they are undeniable. All that the person can do is either accept them as they are purely rational or choose to ignore them. Kioku will have to make that choice. As it stands, we don't even know how much of that he has been presented with or understands yet.

Jac,

Faith need only be the size of a mustard seed.

Let's say you are lost in a pitch balck cave, and can't see a foot in front of your face. In the distance there is a spec of light no bigger than a pin head. What do you do? You move toward the light. As you move toward the light, what happens? You get more light. You keep moving. Move away, more darkness. God has given light to EVERY man. That includes Kioku. John 1:9 is either true or it isn't. Paul harmonizes this in Romans 1. The problem is not that "Light has come into the world." The problem isthat "men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." The problem that Jesus states in His own words is that men LOVE darkness. john 3 for reference.

No believer has come to repentence without the knowledge of sin. "By the Law is the knowledge of sin." Someone can have all the evidence of a creator, and even witness a miracle, but that doesn't mean they will ever see their sin for what it is. How many witnessed water into wine, the feeding of 5,000, the raising of Lazarus, and more, only to walk away unrepentant and still lost in their sin. Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.

I have no doubt there are many apologetic arguments you could present, and there are some good ones. And I use many myself. But is that the problem? In reading Kioku's replies, I think not. This is someone who has said, I need to EXPERIENCE something. An argument for, is not what he is asking for. He is wanting a sign. Could it any clearer. I suggest you go back and read through the thread. Is he not saying, "I have little if no faith, and to rememdy this, God is going to have to perform for me." ?

Pharisees seek after signs. The only one they will get is the sign of the resurrection, which you should be pointing him to. In any case, your argument is unfalsifiable. If he gets frustrated and leaves, you can show sadness and say, "Too bad he wasn't willing to act in faith." And if God is so gracious as to give him a sign, you can say, "See, all he needed to do was act in faith."

But carry on. Continue exhorting a man to respond in a faith he doesn't have.

Jac3510 wrote:Pharisees seek after signs. The only one they will get is the sign of the resurrection, which you should be pointing him to. In any case, your argument is unfalsifiable. If he gets frustrated and leaves, you can show sadness and say, "Too bad he wasn't willing to act in faith." And if God is so gracious as to give him a sign, you can say, "See, all he needed to do was act in faith."

But carry on. Continue exhorting a man to respond in a faith he doesn't have.

The problem is not that he doesn't have faith. Clearly he professes as such and that's fine (although I fundamentally disagree with that notion altogether as everyone has faith of some sort). The problem is that he is unwilling to try. You (Jac) suggested to him several sources and materials to read. I subsequently asked him if he bothered to read any of it. He hasn't responded as of yet, not even to indicate he's in the process of. Unless and until he does read the material I have to assume he is not interested in admitting a believing faith is even possible. What is stupid is to assume he still cares.

Jac,

Again, how do we keep coming back to this. Kioku is demanding a sign. I have sited the same scripture you have, and said that sign seeking is not God seeking. I have repeatedly directed Kioku back to examine himself under the moral law of God. The Law is our schoolmaster that leads us to Christ.

Kioku by his own admission in this thread, has been given light. He has claimed to have proofs in the past, and claims to be a Christian. Which means he has some knowlegde of the Christian faith. God has put a conscience within him. And apparently it is working or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Why would you show someone the cross when they are seeking a show from God? The preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that perish.

I have defended biblically that God has given each man light, and a measure of faith. I have also demonstrated biblically that we can only respond to what we have. And the bible teaches that God has in fact given us his creation, (outside witness) and the conscience (inside witness). We need to know what truth Kioku really has so he can move toward that light. That is an act of faith. No one is without faith. It might be misplaced, or muted. But no one is without faith, or the ability to exercise faith.

Peter says we should be ready to give a REASON for what we believe.

Like when he got up and read Israel the riot act at Pentecost. There were scoffers there that day to, who saw the sign, and simply said, "they're drunk." Paul went to persuade, and got stoned.

The reason for the hope I have, is Christ Jesus. That I had no hope and was lost in my sin. And through Christ I have hope. We should always be prepared to share that. But we also have to be careful where we cast our pearls.

We have more evidence and apologetics material than ever on the face of the earth. We have exhausted ourselves with book after book. Yet our churches are luke warm, and pastors are closing their bibles and walking away from the faith.
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/18490.htm

But we just need more convincing apolgetics. Or could Spurgeon, Whitfield, Tozer and Wesley have been right.

If we simply base our faith on the best argument, then we are bound to be tossed like a wave in the wind. There will always be some scoffer to throw a counter argument down the road. And my suspicion is this is probably where Kioku may be coming from.

jlay wrote:No one is without faith. It might be misplaced, or muted. But no one is without faith, or the ability to exercise faith.

Bingo!

(the rest of your post ain't bad either )

Like I said, your entire position is unfalsifiable. There's nothing left to say between us. You guys keep taking the approach you are and feel justified when it turns out precisely like you know it will. But as far as continuing a debate on the best method? No need. I've had my say. You've had yours. We aren't going to change one another's mind.

Again, continue exhorting a man to respond in a faith he doesn't have. You can have any last word you want. If Kioku has any questions, he knows how to get answers.

kioku wrote:It's been pinging away at me even more. Why wouldn't he give me a sign? Why wouldn't he give us more proof he's there? It's very cruel. I don't see how it could work out like that. Why wouldn't he make it more obvious? Why doesn't he show he's there like he did to the people in the Bible?

I've seen a psychologist, but it hasn't helped at all. It's been a little more than a week and I feel even worse. I just don't see how there's a point or any meaning to anything if there isn't a God.

I just want something solid to go on. I've read and done nothing but that practically the whole time I've been worrying. While I must admit some are good pieces of evidence, they don't feel like 100% solid proof to me..

I'm losing my faith or I might have none left.

So Kioku,

I'm going to just ask, like Byblos did, what information have you been reading? What apologetics have you been reading. If you are having doubts and wanting answers, pray for wisdom and guidance and read, read, read. read the Bible, read apologetic authors like Lewis, McDowell, and others. what books have you read ?

Jac3510 wrote:Like I said, your entire position is unfalsifiable. There's nothing left to say between us. You guys keep taking the approach you are and feel justified when it turns out precisely like you know it will. But as far as continuing a debate on the best method? No need. I've had my say. You've had yours. We aren't going to change one another's mind.

Again, continue exhorting a man to respond in a faith he doesn't have. You can have any last word you want. If Kioku has any questions, he knows how to get answers.

It's not a matter of disagreeing with you Jac (at the core I really don't disagree with the position you're taking that we can present solid evidence). Nor is it a matter of having the last word; we've been through many discussions on here to know that's not my style (I'll let jlay speak for himself on that). I am simply asking you why you want to waste your time on someone who is not affording you the courtesy of a response, let alone engaging your attempts at helping him in any serious manner, that is all.

kioku wrote:I have asked my mother about the issue, but she keeps repeating about faith and to be completely honest, that does not help me at all. I have prayed for a sign from God that he's there and have been since yesterday, possibly as soon as he could get one to me. I also prayed for him to make it out of the ordinary, so I'd know it's a sign and it would remove all shadow of a doubt from my heart. I want to believe, there's just not a lot for me to go on. I haven't noticed anything out of the usual.

I remember myself praying for this. God gave me His answer. Now I need a lot of faith to not believe.

I've seen some things out of the ordinary, but nothing as big as I expected or something that would stick out and remove all shadow of doubt. I guess I have to keep on hoping.

kioku wrote:I've seen some things out of the ordinary, but nothing as big as I expected or something that would stick out and remove all shadow of doubt. I guess I have to keep on hoping.

Hope is good. Try a little exercise in due diligence as well, that might help.

I registered just now and feel compelled to post here.

Two months ago, if you asked me my beliefs, I would have said that I was an atheist.

My grandpa died on March 16, 2009, and I had an existential crisis.

I have done quite a bit of reading on the subject, and I realize that the evidence really does point to a creator.

Keep on reading, knowledge is your subject. Don't look at the anti-christian stuff yet, wait until your faith is more solid. It will only confuse you for now, you need a worldview to plant yourself on before you can see how firm it is If I wanted to learn about science, I would surely not go to sources that try and "debunk" it. Look at the evidence that each side has, and it points to the one and only God.

Which books have I read that helped a lot?

Dismantling Evolution by Ralph Muncaster

The case for the Real Jesus and The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel

this website, and reasons.org, along with other links on those sites

watching videos of heaven and hell death experiences (Bishop "earthquake" kelley, Ian McKormack, the videos with Maurice Rawlings)

All of these are puzzle pieces that contributed to me coming to Christ.

Keep up the faith, do not lose hope! You are here, and you have the ability to comprehend the existence of God.

Thanks Muttaru.

Very good post. Wow! two months ago and atheist, and now a believer.
That is very good about the information that helped answer your questions. Could you please share more about the spiritual change you went through?

I hope Kioku finds this helpful although I wonder if it speaks directly to his issu. This is someone who is wanting a sign from God. We have exhaustively covered the fact that sign seeking is NOT God seeking. I feel that K is going to be hard pressed to ever find the peace he needs, if this is the demand of his heart.

Despite Jac's accusations we all know that Kioku's problem is not answered by simply "believing" harder. As if K can clinch his fist, squint his eyes, and just believe real hard. That isn't my position. I do beleive however, that a person has to humbly take a look at what they have, and respond to it before they can move forward. Blackaby talks about this. Will God entrust you with more light if you have failed to respond to what light He has given you? When we speak of faith we speak of the response to what God has given us. For many of us, this is a process. Much of which may be occuring subconsciously, some very much on the conscious level. As a Christian we are going to have mountains and valleys. There are times where it is almost easy to believe, and other times where it is as if God is not listening. We must know in the valleys that God has said, never will I leave you, never will I forsake you. In those valleys I can say, "Yes Lord, I will beleive in spite of my circumstances." I doubt the Word would spend so much time telling us not to worry, not to doubt, and not to fear, if in fact those weren't going to be real challenges. All that said, I'm not sure this is what K is dealing with. If K truly thinks he is a Christian, which he has professed, and at the same time is struggling to even believe that God exist at all, then I am very perpelexed. Yet, somehow we think that reading an article is going to address this. It seems much deeper to me.

Often times we see a person move from unbelief to belief, much like Mutt, and we think, wow that happened fast. But, we must know that God is always working in our lives. Drawing men unto himself. Mutt talks about puzzle pieces. No doubt that God was intervening in Mutt's life long before the "decision" to follow.

Someone who is struggling with doubt also means they are struggling with belief. That in fact belief is or was there, but now there is a crisis. why? There could be a number of reasons. It could be that their belief was never genuine to begin with. It could be misplaced. It could be confused because of false teaching. It could even be chemical. Depression, etc.

I love this story
A devout Christian heard an urgent news report on his radio that a flash flood was within minutes of entering the peaceful valley where he lived. Immediately he went to his knees and prayed for safety. The words were still on his lips when he became aware that water was gushing under his door. He retreated to the second floor and finally onto the roof of his house.
While he sat on the roof, a helicopter flew by and the pilot asked over the loudspeaker if they could lift him off. It's not necessary since I have the Lord's protection, he replied.
Moments later the house began to break up and he found himself clinging to a tree. A police boat, braving the waters, approached him for rescue, but he assured them that the Lord would save him. Finally, the tree gave way and the man went to his death.
Standing before the Lord, he asked, Lord, I'm glad to be here, but why didn?t You answer my prayer for safety??
The Lord responded, "Son, I told you over the radio to get out of there Then I sent you a helicopter and a motor boat!?"

Nowhere in the Bible are we given the idea that God works only in the extraordinary. Much of the time He supernaturally works through His created order. Many people think God is present only when there is a miracle and that He leads only through signs and wonders.
There are people who always look for a sign. They walk by sight, not by faith. To them, God is only present in the miraculous. God was really at the church service if something unusual happened. Many desire and look for visitations from God.
But how does that square with God's omnipresence and the fact that He will never leave us or forsake us? Isn't God at every church service? Since God created the fixed order of the universe, would you expect Him to work primarily within that fixed order or outside of it? If God gave us a watch, would we be honoring Him more by asking Him what time it is or by simply consulting the watch?
Lord, forgive me for looking for signs when I only need to trust Your Word and live by Your promises.