Evidence for God from Science

DannyM wrote: What responses? Do you remember in Luton when soldiers were on a homecoming parade through the town centre and the Islamic fundamentalists who were on the very same streets screaming abuse at these heroic soldiers?

I remember it well - I remember about 10 cowardly muslims, and hundreds upon hundreds of people out in support of our troops.

DannyM wrote: Will you acknowledge that there is an undercurrent of inverted justice which punishes Christians or indiginous citizens for daring to speak their democratic mind?

No - but I'm open to examples of such...

touchingcloth wrote:I remember it well - I remember about 10 cowardly muslims, and hundreds upon hundreds of people out in support of our troops.

So what about the fact the these 10 (ish) cowardly Muslims had a "safe house" down a side street to where the parade was taking place? What about the fact that these groups regularly campain and recruit on the streets of British soil? How far will democracy stretch yourt heart? And when that democracy, which yours and my forefathers fought for, turns and becomes incomprehensively inverted and upside down so as to begin to prosecute the people in a paradoxical fashion, will you begin to see that there's something very rotten at the heart of the United Kingdom?

touchingcloth wrote:No - but I'm open to examples of such...

Okay. I'll mention Brighton two years ago when an elderly Christian couple were arrested and incarcerated for 36 hours for handing out leaflets warning against sodomy during a gay "rights" march. And short of trawling through newspaper archives, I'd appreciate it if you didn't put up bogus obstacles and just admitted that there's a deep and fundamental problem occuring within your own country.

DannyM wrote:

touchingcloth wrote:I remember it well - I remember about 10 cowardly muslims, and hundreds upon hundreds of people out in support of our troops.

So what about the fact the these 10 (ish) cowardly Muslims had a "safe house" down a side street to where the parade was taking place? What about the fact that these groups regularly campain and recruit on the streets of British soil? How far will democracy stretch yourt heart? And when that democracy, which yours and my forefathers fought for, turns and becomes incomprehensively inverted and upside down so as to begin to prosecute the people in a paradoxical fashion, will you begin to see that there's something very rotten at the heart of the United Kingdom?

Democracy stretches far enough for me that I'd rather see the anti-troops muslims and the anti-immigration brits able to protest, rather than silenced by force or writ.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

touchingcloth wrote:Democracy stretches far enough for me that I'd rather see the anti-troops muslims and the anti-immigration brits able to protest, rather than silenced by force or writ.

You see, I have no problem with this; my problem lies with indiginous Christians who proceed to counter-protest; my problem lies with the authorities giving cart blanche to minority protesters but clamping down Soviet-style on the counter protests. Why can a Muslim go to a homecoming parade and draw his finger across his throat at soldiers with no comeback and an elderly couple dishing out leaflets at a gay rally be incarcerated for 36v hours?

There's your anomoly.

Key word being essential.

It's not an anomloly Danny. It's called biting off your nose to spite your face. everyone is interested in freedom until it offends their own sensabilities.

Muslims are quite content to live within the framework of a democratic society until they get enough numbers to institute theocratic Sharia law.

Live at peace while the minority. When the majority, make Islam THE law, through force if necessary.

jlay wrote:everyone is interested in freedom until it offends their own sensabilities.

So when freedom offends your sensibilites would you advocate removing it?

Protests against troops and homosexuals offend my sensibilities as it happens...

As long as the beer and the chips flow and they can pick up a check from the government and watch a game, most of those who don't believe in anything will do nothing until it's too late. They follow a carnal path of least resistance. It's akin to the fellow who hid his one talent because he didn't believe in anything enough to put in the wrench time to save himself.

AoK - As an analogy it's more akin to zebras grazing with one eye on the lion; they know that there's a threat from the lion but also that there's a tradeoff of running away prematurely thereby wasting energy and not getting a good fill of food.

There's a possibility of the rise of sharia law etc in the west but is it likely enough to warrant going down the path of, for example, banning the religion outright.

touchingcloth wrote:AoK - As an analogy it's more akin to zebras grazing with one eye on the lion; they know that there's a threat from the lion but also that there's a tradeoff of running away prematurely thereby wasting energy and not getting a good fill of food.

There's a possibility of the rise of sharia law etc in the west but is it likely enough to warrant going down the path of, for example, banning the religion outright.

If that's what you're banking on you're in for a rude awakening (you as in Europe).

Byblos wrote:

touchingcloth wrote:AoK - As an analogy it's more akin to zebras grazing with one eye on the lion; they know that there's a threat from the lion but also that there's a tradeoff of running away prematurely thereby wasting energy and not getting a good fill of food.

There's a possibility of the rise of sharia law etc in the west but is it likely enough to warrant going down the path of, for example, banning the religion outright.

If that's what you're banking on you're in for a rude awakening (you as in Europe).

On the strength of what evidence?

touchingcloth wrote:

Byblos wrote:

touchingcloth wrote:AoK - As an analogy it's more akin to zebras grazing with one eye on the lion; they know that there's a threat from the lion but also that there's a tradeoff of running away prematurely thereby wasting energy and not getting a good fill of food.

There's a possibility of the rise of sharia law etc in the west but is it likely enough to warrant going down the path of, for example, banning the religion outright.

If that's what you're banking on you're in for a rude awakening (you as in Europe).

On the strength of what evidence?

History of Islam.

Byblos-
I'm well aware of the potential dangers of islam - even only taking into account recent history the images of 11th september and 7th july are enough to highlight that.

But the evidence simply doesn't support a claim like yours that the majority of Europe will be an islamic theocracy within 2-3 generations.

I like do like the fact that you see the potential threat touchingcloth. Your zebra analogy was a good one. I liked it. Nobody here, as of yet, has talked about what solutions might be appropriate. We're still discussing the scope of the problem and recognizing that we're on different ends of the scale as far as urgency but I do see a couple of your points and I think you see a couple of ours. The floor is now open for possible solutions. Keep it scholarly. Peace.

ageofknowledge wrote:I like do like the fact that you see the potential threat touchingcloth. Your zebra analogy was a good one. I liked it. Nobody here, as of yet, has talked about what solutions might be appropriate. We're still discussing the scope of the problem and recognizing that we're on different ends of the scale as far as urgency but I do see a couple of your points and I think you see a couple of ours. The floor is now open for possible solutions. Keep it scholarly. Peace.

Solutions, AOK? We should first talk about the nature of Islam and sharia law. But prior to that about Christianity in society. Britain (Europe really but, you know...) and America absolutely has 2000 years of Christianity to thank for its core values which underpin its societies and laws; many of our standard laws and beliefs we take for granted actually owe their foundations to the Christian ethic. But it has largely been acknowledged by our free and democratic societies that church and state must remain at a healthy distance. This has its downfalls, one example being our secular rulers over here practically encouraging divorce with its silmultaneous anti-family and pro-single parent laws. But it's a price we pay for the church remaining outside politics. Luckily our rulers have been raised on the fundamental ethics I mentioned earlier and we can largely have a Christian-based society without Christianity, the church, being seen to intefere.

So on to Islam: here we have a different kettle of fish all together. Islam *is* sharia law; sharia law *is* Islam. The two go hand in hand. Islam the religion itself influences the "democratic" process and law. From Islam's inception it has sought to "Islamify" the world. Tolerance is not a word with figures very prominently in this relgion's vocabulary. Yes there are *tolerent* Muslims; but this does not mount to anywhere near enough to be comfortable and happy in the analogy of the grazing Zebra; the analogy falls down precisely because the Zebra is totally oblivious to the threat of the pincer movement on its blindside.

So now I am sure we do not advocate the ban on Muslim worship and thus Muslim *places* of worship in our societies. Over here border patrol is a big issue and we could do a lot more - with the will - to enforce stringent checks. But we do not have the political will. I welcome multi-racial communities; I myself was brough up in a multi-racial area of West London; But I do not welcome multi-cultural communities. Multi-culturalism is the failed experiment that keeps on trucking; it is a idealistic disaster. A culture shapes a society, our society. The culture of Britain has been overwhelmingly Christian for 2000 years; and yet we have had another culture enforced upon us, without a referrendum or a please nor thank you from any government, and it is expected to work! Culture shapes the whole dynamic of society. And if you have a clash of cultures in a society then the dynamic will change, cultures and thus *people* will clash, and you're heading for an unpleasant ride.

Please don't mistake my realism for pessimism; realism should inm no way negate my optimism. I am always optimistic in life, but I'm afraid, in Britain, the corner has been turned, and I for the life of me can see no humane way of reversing this train wreck.

God bless