Infinite punishment for finite sins

[CeT-To]

Providing that the lake of fire is a sealed deal once one is in ... if lets say after a while you take one of the burning souls outside and put them on a seat and you give them 2 choices
1) You come to heaven and worship God and glorify Him for ever and ever
2) you go back from where you came

I dunno i have a feeling that they will walk right back to where they came because of their grown hate for God. But i'm not sure what do you guys think? Even if one does choose the first do you think that they will have learned their lesson and not sin again?

[BavarianWheels]

Did Christ suffer the death of a sinner?

No…because he never sinned…prove he did.

Any other takers on this "gospel"? (not that I'm saying Christ sinned)

If Christ didn't suffer our death for sin, then what did He do?
If Christ didn't in the least, FEEL separated from His Father, God, then why did He say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Maybe another look at 1 Corinthians 15:12-28. After His enemies are put under His feet, death itself is destroyed...the last enemy.

The beauty of God taking on the punishment of sin, death and separation, is that God is able to raise Himself or be raised from death. Satan didn't really count on that or he didn't understand how the legality of it.
.
.

[B. W.]

Post One, post two and three below this one answer three different comments but they all link together...

There is much in scripture that gives evidence to complete death. God never made humanity "eternal souls" that cannot die if God "alone is immortal" (1 Timothy 6:16), why then must we be changed from mortal to immortal, perishable to imperishable? If our spirit is already immortal...and we get new bodies....??

1.That say’s nothing about complete death for humans.
2. If God alone possesses immortality than that would mean that humans could not have immortality so it is not meant to say that God is the only one who can have immortality.

John 3:16 answers your question..God is immortal by nature but he promised that he would give man immortality Titus 1:2. God will raise the dead Revelation 20:13 and put and end to death (no one dies) Revelation 20:14 And just to reinforce this, the bible say’s Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Judgment, that’s it, no death, no one can die and it’s time for the unsaved to account for sins Revelation 20:15. No way around it wheels…

In any case, as I said earlier “The why and the intent are very important to God. And his word is made to help and aid us in many areas. His word will cause many feelings, resistance, peace, joy, worrier etc. But it is all good and causes us to keep searching for the truth, not only the truth behind his words but the truth in our heart.”

Everyone think about that instead of worrying about if people burn or not. It’s important and it’s best to do just as Jesus said. And when talking about hell it’s best to say what he said.

Let me add to this a bit more:

Does 1 Timothy 6 verse 16 support the conditionalist / annihilationist point of view?

Please note context of 1 Timothy 6 verse 16 starting in verse 13.

1 Timothy 6:13, "I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate…”NKJV

Notice the phrase – God who gives life to all things – this is a key verse. It is the Immortal God that gives life. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance. We, as Human beings have a definite being and from the moment of that beginning, eternity was placed in our hearts as humanity was originally designed to be in God’s eternal image.

1 Timothy 6:14, 15, “…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords…”NKJV

Now read verse 16 in context is referring to Jesus Christ…

1 Timothy 6:16, “..who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”NKJV

We, as human beings had a definite starting point, but Jesus Christ did not, therefore truly He alone is from everlasting to everlasting…always had true immortality.

We human beings had a beginning – The true immortality of God is that God has no beginning or end. We had a beginning and from that beginning were fashioned with eternity in our hearts and thus designed to be eternal beings from a starting point. We are eternal beings with a definite beginning. God does not have a beginning and thus He alone is truly Immortal (Having no beginning because God always had immortality).

AMG Word studies sheds more light on this…

athanasía; gen. athanasías, fem. noun from athánatos (n.f.), immortal, which is from the priv. a (G1), without, and thánatos (G2288), death. Rendered "immortality" in 1 Co 15:53-54 of the glorified body of the believer. In the NT it expresses the nature not of life itself, but strictly speaking, only a quality of life such as the quality of the life of God and the resurrection body of the believer. Our bodies are subject to death, mortal (related to thnētós [G2349], to die). Used in Rom 6:12 of the body where it is called "mortal," not simply because it is liable to death but because it is the organ in and through which death carries on its fatal activities.

The only other place where athanasía occurs is 1 Ti 6:16 where the word is used in reference to the Lord Jesus Christ in His manifestation as the God-Man. It is true that He suffered death, His physical body and His spirit separated one from the other, but they did not remain separated. He brought them together once again with an incorruptible body that had all the characteristics that our resurrection body will have.

The Lord Jesus Himself, however, has inherent athanasía, immortality, in that no one could permanently separate His body from His spirit. He raised His body and joined it together with His spirit which temporarily had been committed to the Father. Thus He is the only One who inherently has always had immortality.

The phrase here is as it is found in Gr.: "the only one having immortality" (a.t.), meaning that He always had it. He never gave it up and He still has it.

Therefore, athanasía always refers to the non-separation of the spirit. This is the quality of having the spirit attached to the resurrection body, while aphtharsía refers to the incapacity of the new resurrection body to deteriorate. This is a quality, however, that our present bodies do not have but will have in the resurrection.

Look at the retranslated verse 16 below…

1 Timothy 6:16, “..who always had immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

Note the context with the translated verse 16.

1 Timothy 6:13, 14, 15, “I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14, that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords…”

1 Timothy 6:16, “..who always had immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.”

Hope this clarifies thing for you Bav...

The principles found in the bible that reveal that God placed eternity in our hearts, gives life, reneges on no gifts, does not take away life, such things as this he does endures forever, substantiates that He designed human beings and angelic beings with an eternal nature with a definite beginning. Because God alone always had immortality – he shares it as he so ever wills. For the conditionalist / annihilationist doctrine to be correct it must do so by violating all these principles declared about God found in the bible.

Therefore, where does a person want to spend their eternity is a central theme of Christianity.

Revelation 22:11
-
-
-

[B. W.]

Post Two - from the above and below postings regarding answering three different comments...

Providing that the lake of fire is a sealed deal once one is in ... if lets say after a while you take one of the burning souls outside and put them on a seat and you give them 2 choices
1) You come to heaven and worship God and glorify Him for ever and ever
2) you go back from where you came

I dunno i have a feeling that they will walk right back to where they came because of their grown hate for God. But i'm not sure what do you guys think? Even if one does choose the first do you think that they will have learned their lesson and not sin again?

This is correct, they cannot return to heaven, as it is written in Isaiah 26:10, "Even if pity is shown to the wicked, he still doesn't learn what righteousness is. In a land of uprightness he will still act wrongly and fail to see the majesty of Adonai (Yahewh)" CJB

Is 26:10, "Let favour be shown to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness will he deal wrongfully, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD."JPS

Note: Proverbs 26:11, 2 Pe 2:22

As for sympathizing with those in Hell or the Lake of fire, the bible says something different:

Dan 12:2, "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (1806).” NKJV

AMG Word Studies states as quoted below:

1860 strongs - dērā’ôn: A masculine noun meaning abhorrence. This word is related to an Arabic verb, which means to repel. Thus, the object of repulsion is an abhorrence. It is used only twice in the Old Testament and in both cases speaks about the eternal abhorrence of those who rebelled against the Lord. The prophet Isaiah ended his message by declaring the abhorrence of wicked men in the eternal state (Isa 66:24). Daniel, likewise, spoke about the everlasting abhorrence of the wicked who were resurrected (Dan 12:2).

Now read Daniel 12:2 again:

"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence, hatred, detestation, great aversion).”
-
-
-

[B. W.]

Post Three - from the above postings in answering three different comments and Each builds on the other...

Did Christ suffer the death of a sinner?

No…because he never sinned…prove he did.

Any other takers on this "gospel"? (not that I'm saying Christ sinned)

If Christ didn't suffer our death for sin, then what did He do?
If Christ didn't in the least, FEEL separated from His Father, God, then why did He say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Maybe another look at 1 Corinthians 15:12-28. After His enemies are put under His feet, death itself is destroyed...the last enemy.

The beauty of God taking on the punishment of sin, death and separation, is that God is able to raise Himself or be raised from death. Satan didn't really count on that or he didn't understand how the legality of it.
.
.

According to the conditionalist / annihilationist doctrine: For Jesus to have fully tasted death for all people – he would have had to been annihilated into non-being to do so but does not 1 Timothy 6:13, 16 - state this would have been impossible?

Thank about it…

Hebrews 2:9, “But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone….” NASB
-
-
-

[BavarianWheels]

It is correct to say that Jesus according to his human nature was born and died but he was uncreated. It is also correct to say Jesus according to his divine nature did not die. It is further correct to say that Jesus is fully divine and fully man, and he is one.

This quote is from the Thomas Aquinas thread in this forum. Sorry Byblos to hijack a point. Maybe you could enlighten me/us exactly how this may or may not fit here.

I think it fits quite exactly in the conversation here and in light of the topic here, again I must ask, Did Christ truly die for our sins and thus pay exactly the price God demands of sinners to pay apart from Him? If God is Judge and He must be just, is there any other way to see this? What I mean to say is does God play legal "tricks and twists" on Himself to pay the price or is the price truly and legally paid?
.
.

[B. W.]

Bav - Do you understand the basics of Romans 4:25?

"...who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification..."

And all of Romans 5 as well?

[Well that fits also I believe, however the point better made is that IF Christ suffered the death of the sinner, and more so the death or penalty of all sin placed upon Him, then we have another example of what the penalty of sin is...it's exactly as John 3:16 says it is. It is not to suffer unending pain and torment, but to perish/die ultimately a total and complete separation from the Life Giver.

I wonder why some of us promote the John 3:16 verse so much as total and complete truth…and yet we don't believe the words therein.

There is much in scripture that gives evidence to complete death. God never made humanity "eternal souls" that cannot die if God "alone is immortal" (1 Timothy 6:16), why then must we be changed from mortal to immortal, perishable to imperishable? If our spirit is already immortal...and we get new bodies....??

Next…

Reason believers in Christ attain new bodies, as do the non-believers, is that God keeps his word and fulfils it as he spoke it in Genesis 1:26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 – Since sin entered the world, in order to keep his word and promises requires what is written in Revelation 21:1 to happen.

For believers: To live on a new earth in a new body reunited with its own living spiritual essence as 1 Corinthians chapter 15 goes into details about. Now, on the other hand, for non-believers, what Daniel 12:2 says – everlasting abhorrence, detestation, hatred, revulsion where Revelation 20:15 states and Post Two above gives light too.

What God does regarding judgment, his will, purposes, and plans endures forever…in ways profound.

As for 1 Tim 6:16 see Post One above and read Post Three above as well…
-
-
-

[J.Davis]

If Christ didn't suffer our death for sin, then what did He do?

again I must ask, Did Christ truly die for our sins and thus pay exactly the price God demands of sinners to pay apart from Him?

Hey, now you’re trying to take My words and meanings out of context....LOL.

Wheels, I said….

So, the statement and scripture you gave as an example/metaphor for the process an unsaved/sinner goes through when they die does not fit the process Jesus went through when he died so your reasoning does not work.

The Unsaved Wheels, that is what this thread is about. I started my statement by using your wording, believing that we had the understanding that it meant unsaved sinners, your argument makes no sense any other way. That is who you speak of, the unsaved (despite hiding it with the phrase- our sins or sinners). That whole paragraph was about the fact that Jesus did not, in anyway, die the death of an unsaved person.

But I made sure to put a fail safe in (see quote above). And now I know the kind of game you play…

Did Jesus die the death of a saved sinner? One can make that connection, in part, but he also died the death of a loving father, so he could save his children.

But Wheels, none of that helps your argument one bit. As I said, there is no way in the world that Jesus died the death of an unsaved sinner, if you think so, prove it. The bible separates what happens to the saved and unsaved, there is no way you will be able to use Jesus as an example for what happens to the unsaved when they die. God said what would happen to the unsaved...They die the death of their father, Satan... John 8:42 John 8:44 If you use him then your reasoning will work. But we all know what happens to him…Revelation 20:10 No way around it wheels.

If Christ didn't in the least, FEEL separated from His Father, God, then why did He say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Well, it certainly has nothing to do with him being separated from the Father and the Holy spirit in any way at all. He is God and always knows he's God.

Why did Jesus cry out in a loud voice and say: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Because he was in serious pain, it was an expression. He was saying: This is madness! You people are animals (the Jews he gave himself over to in order to sacrifice his life for those who will accept him)! Seriously, this hurts.... I am left to these evil mad men and their cross.. My body can no longer endure this torture! And a short time latter…Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. It was done…Deuteronomy 31:6 He simply had enough.

David’s Psalm, Same idea Psalm 22:1 I’ve had enough pain. Same here Psalm 42:9. Enough with the pain already…You get it.

As I said, it would not support your idea as Jesus could never be an example of what will happen to the unsaved when they die.

God will raise the dead Revelation 20:13 and put and end to death (no one dies) Revelation 20:14 And just to reinforce this, the bible say’s Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment. No death, no one can die and it’s time for the unsaved to account for sins Revelation 20:15.

No way around it wheels, If you use the bible than no scriptures will ever contradict it…Ever. It really is pointless to dispute it…The hell message is good for both the saved and the unsaved..Wheels.

[J.Davis]

One more point concerning Matthew 27:46 “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

Jesus (out of respect for who he is) didn’t want to give the animals (the Jews he gave Himself over to in order to sacrifice His life for those who will accept him) the idea (the pleasure) of thinking that they had the power to kill him (kill God). The Jews at the time knew what the saying “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me” meant (I can’t take anymore, get me out of this mess!). He wanted them to know that he yielded up His spirit (as the disciples record). Not that they had any power to kill him (God). That is also why the disciples recorded what the people said after Jesus said “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” Then came Matthew 27:49 But the rest of them said, “Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him.”

It was said like this...(sarcasm) he thinks he’s God, let’s kill him and find out. Oh...look, God calls for Elijah LOL! Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him LOL!

They could think what they wanted, Jesus tells them (and us) that he has had enough of their foolishness and yields up His spirit, Jesus: I’m out of here (God getting himself out of the situation).

[Byblos]

It is correct to say that Jesus according to his human nature was born and died but he was uncreated. It is also correct to say Jesus according to his divine nature did not die. It is further correct to say that Jesus is fully divine and fully man, and he is one.

This quote is from the Thomas Aquinas thread in this forum. Sorry Byblos to hijack a point. Maybe you could enlighten me/us exactly how this may or may not fit here.

No problem Bav, I'll try but I'm not sure I will be able to help (might make matters worse, in fact).

I think it fits quite exactly in the conversation here and in light of the topic here, again I must ask, Did Christ truly die for our sins and thus pay exactly the price God demands of sinners to pay apart from Him? If God is Judge and He must be just, is there any other way to see this? What I mean to say is does God play legal "tricks and twists" on Himself to pay the price or is the price truly and legally paid?

Jesus taking on our sins and dying for us does not in any way make him a sinner, if that's what you mean. It is in fact the exact opposite, he was (is) the perfect, unblemished lamb, otherwise he would not have been fit to be the last passover lamb and would not have fulfilled the prophesies. He took the punishment for our sins upon himself but was not a sinner himself.

I am trying, however, to relate this to the topic itself and I'm not seeing the connection Bav. Are you saying that Jesus would have had to suffer precisely a sinner's death (a total separation from God) albeit for the 3 days before his resurrection? Well, we know from scripture (1 Pet. 3:19) that Jesus did preach to the dead in prison. But he descended there as a Savior proclaiming the Good news and to open the gates of heaven, not as a sinner.

[B. W.]

...Jesus taking on our sins and dying for us does not in any way make him a sinner, if that's what you mean. It is in fact the exact opposite, he was (is) the perfect, unblemished lamb, otherwise he would not have been fit to be the last passover lamb and would not have fulfilled the prophesies. He took the punishment for our sins upon himself but was not a sinner himself.

I am trying, however, to relate this to the topic itself and I'm not seeing the connection Bav. Are you saying that Jesus would have had to suffer precisely a sinner's death (a total separation from God) albeit for the 3 days before his resurrection? Well, we know from scripture (1 Pet. 3:19) that Jesus did preach to the dead in prison. But he descended there as a Savior proclaiming the Good news and to open the gates of heaven, not as a sinner.

This is Basic Orthodox Christian doctrine backed by what the bible teaches about Christ the Lamb of God.

Bav, note too that Jesus, after the crucifixion did not soul sleep, nor did he non-exist, he went where to preach to whom and lead captivity captive where?

Byblos already gave you a clue...

Bav please read Matthew 17:3, 4, 5, 6, 7 8, 9, "And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, I will make three tabernacles here, one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

"5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of the cloud said, "This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!"

"6-9 When the disciples heard this, they fell face down to the ground and were terrified. 7 And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, "Get up, and do not be afraid." 8 And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one except Jesus Himself alone. 9 As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." NASB

Hmmm, interesting how Moses was not soul sleeping but alive enough to come around for a visit before Christ resurrection
-
-
-

[CeT-To]

What did the apparition of Moses & Elijah to Jesus mean? The fact that Peter recognised Moses & Elijah having never seen them is strange too... is something else at work here?

[B. W.]

What did the apparition of Moses & Elijah to Jesus mean? The fact that Peter recognised Moses & Elijah having never seen them is strange too... is something else at work here?

Yes, they were verifying the Mantle of authority and testifying that Christ was the one both spoke of...

Moses in Deuteronomy 18:15

and the works of Elijah to numerous to go into now

These are just a few reasons...
-
-
-

[Sudsy]

Well, I'm back from a short but nice trip and I see much continues to be said to support the interpretation of endless torment. Since it seems to be an area that some of you feel very strongly that it needs to be defended and might be a stumblingblock to seekers, I will not debate this further. Not that I couldn't, as there are some big holes in both your reasonings and use of scriptures but be that as it may, I don't see the point to continue. And by the way, not always faithful, but I have been a believer for 57 years.

I stick with what I originally argued that you can't believe in never ending torment for the unsaved and love your neighbour as yourself unless you would be pleading constantly with everyone to come to Christ. You don't seem to follow this argument and take it as an insult, so I can't deal with that kind of logic.

But I don't want to be a 'thorn in the flesh' either as a participant on this forum so I'll try another thread or two and will try to stay away from this topic.

However, what I will offer for those who wish to study the alternative annihilation view, many of the arguments I relate to are found in this link - http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... tion/6.htm

[J.Davis]

Sudsy,Welcome back, good to hear that you enjoyed your trip!

I will not debate this further. Not that I couldn't, as there are some big holes in both your reasonings.

It is not my reasoning but God who reasons with us through scripture. It is his word you reject because you do not understand.

As I said before, I am not trying to force you to believe anything you don’t want to accept. Jesus said what he did because he knows better than all. But he leaves us all free to make our choice. Some choose to believe (your link), that if Jesus meant what he said, and will do as he said concerning hell, then he is evil (Judge God). I choose to believe that Jesus knows best, despite how bad what he said may seem (and I do understand how bad it sounds). I choose to accept it anyway, and trust him, because I love him.

Edit..Thanks B.W Your post calmed me down, the men in that link got me a bit fired up. No one talks about my God like that..