Evidence for God from Science

Homosexuality is a sin, but no worse then all the others!

He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
John8;7


For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
James 2:10

Actually its a virtue, because it means there are more women to go around. Having four wives is a sin, because that means there are less to go around.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Can a heterosexual Christian with sexual perversion tendencies/issues/problems truly be a Christian and thus be saved?

Yes they can... However, according to your beliefs, people cannot truly change their genetic ways because of heredity.. Sin is no longer a sin, it's a chemical dependency.. Homosexuality is now considered an alternative lifestyle. That is a lie from Hell... And contrary to 1 John 3:5-6, Romans 6:14, 2 Corinthians 3:18, Romans 6:17-18, 1 John 5:18.

I'm not sure why I was banned for a week, but I took it in stride. No reason was given, nor did I get any PM's about anything.

I don't think you understand what, in essence, you are arguing against here. When we get down to the nitty-gritty, we all have a genetic/hereditary problem known as the sin nature handed down from Adam. Are you saying you can change your genetics? There is no way we can change our genetics because of this heredity. Again you charge me with nonesense "beliefs"...that of sin no longer being sin. I challenge you to show where EVER I have said that homosexual acts are not a sin because of genetics. The only thing I have said about homosexuals and genetics is simply that homosexuality is more than likely NOT a choice lifestyle given the fact of the majority of homosexuals claiming they have known their difference from an early age...that SIN has so degenerated this world that, like sin itself was handed down, so sin has manipulated our genetics to even change nature. Does this idea then make the acts of homosexuals righteous acts? Not at all. It simply makes the argument that BEING homosexual is no more a sin than BEING a heterosexual. Both have perversions that, if Christian, must be dealt with.

Gman wrote:Homosexuality is now considered an alternative lifestyle.

With sin in the mix, of course it's an 'alternative lifestyle'...which world are you living in that it isn't? Is the gay community a myth?

So then your 'yes' answer to the question means you uphold heterosexual perversion as "better" sins? I'm not sure, but it seems to be. Maybe you should clarify what you mean when you agree that heterosexuals with sexual perversion problems can still be Christians. Let's give the example of a male with a sexual addiction for females that includes, among others, sodomy.

Help me understand the 'yes' to the question.
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Hmm.,..I wouldn't go so far as to say we are only the result of our genes. I think there is something along the lines of "we are more that the sum of our parts".

We can point to a gene for obesity but does that explain gluttony?

We can point to the genes for sexual responses but does that completely explain lust?

We can even perhaps find explanations for "wanting" (attractive design of an object, beauty of a car to our eyes) but that doesn't explain coveting or selfishness.

We can find genetic and physical explanations for anger, but that doesn't explain the rage within us.

Genes can explain a lot of the mechanisms by which our desires happen. I don't think they can be anything but that, the mechanism.

zoegirl wrote:Hmm.,..I wouldn't go so far as to say we are only the result of our genes. I think there is something along the lines of "we are more that the sum of our parts".

We can point to a gene for obesity but does that explain gluttony?

We can point to the genes for sexual responses but does that completely explain lust?

We can even perhaps find explanations for "wanting" (attractive design of an object, beauty of a car to our eyes) but that doesn't explain coveting or selfishness.

We can find genetic and physical explanations for anger, but that doesn't explain the rage within us.

Genes can explain a lot of the mechanisms by which our desires happen. I don't think they can be anything but that, the mechanism.

Explain AWAY these (including homosexuality)? No, of course not. As I think I've mentioned it a few times, the point is not that the "gene" explains away homosexual acts, it simply puts both acts on an even plane. That's to say that homosexual acts are no worse a sin than heterosexual perverted acts. Both persons will struggle through their own "demons" and have to answer to God for them/it. This does not give us (heterosexuals) the right to say BEING homosexual is a sin. The being (the person) is already sinful whether homo or hetero. It is our actions that God finds detestable which both hetero and homo perversions are equally sinful.
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OK. I've read this thread long enough to know what people think about this issue. I understand that sin is sin. Just something that struck me about the whole gay issue. I can't help but wonder one thing. And here it is.

Let's take two families. One, a heterosexual, and the other homosexual. Both married living in California (sorry California). Both families have adopted children. Both sets of couples are living in sin, sexually. For the purpose of this story, lets say the heterosexual couple are swingers. The homosexual couple....well, are having an unnatural relationship sexually. Both sets of couples become convicted to quit living in sin and later become Christians. The heterosexual couple stay married and live life according to biblical principles and raise their children. Now, what about the homesexual couple? What next? Should they stay together or divorce? What about the children? Which of these families do you believe will be more devestated?

I seem to find good examples in the Bible of a man/women relationships. But, I cant seem to find any good examples in the Bible of same sex relationships.

My point is this. Sin is sin. But, when sin becomes harmful or damaging to others i.e. the homosexual families future or CHILDREN, then what? If our Christian society continues to water down the word of GOD and push this lifestyle as exceptable and not sinful. Then, where or when should a Christian draw the line of tolorance? I for one do not believe same sex relationships or marriage are right, no matter how you explain it. Nor do I believe that children should be placed in this type of sinful lifestyle.
How much of a sinful society should be tolorated? Or, should we as Christians tolorate all sin and just let GOD deal with it?

Just my take on homosexuality or "alternative lifestyle" ...............wow, the later of the two dosen't make it sound so bad.

sinnerbybirth wrote:OK. I've read this thread long enough to know what people think about this issue. I understand that sin is sin. Just something that struck me about the whole gay issue. I can't help but wonder one thing. And here it is.

Let's take two families. One, a heterosexual, and the other homosexual. Both married living in California (sorry California). Both families have adopted children. Both sets of couples are living in sin, sexually. For the purpose of this story, lets say the heterosexual couple are swingers. The homosexual couple....well, are having an unnatural relationship sexually. Both sets of couples become convicted to quit living in sin and later become Christians. The heterosexual couple stay married and live life according to biblical principles and raise their children. Now, what about the homesexual couple? What next? Should they stay together or divorce? What about the children? Which of these families do you believe will be more devestated?

I seem to find good examples in the Bible of a man/women relationships. But, I cant seem to find any good examples in the Bible of same sex relationships.

My point is this. Sin is sin. But, when sin becomes harmful or damaging to others i.e. the homosexual families future or CHILDREN, then what? If our Christian society continues to water down the word of GOD and push this lifestyle as exceptable and not sinful. Then, where or when should a Christian draw the line of tolorance? I for one do not believe same sex relationships or marriage are right, no matter how you explain it. Nor do I believe that children should be placed in this type of sinful lifestyle.
How much of a sinful society should be tolorated? Or, should we as Christians tolorate all sin and just let GOD deal with it?

Just my take on homosexuality or "alternative lifestyle" ...............wow, the later of the two dosen't make it sound so bad.

Great point. Good scenario. In a theocratic society "we", the Christians, could make laws to keep this from happening. I am with you in the general sense. However we do not live within a theocracy. There is no law against being a homosexual. (do we as Christians want such a law? I don't) I agree that children shouldn't be given over to homosexual couples (in my Christian morals thinking) but who's to say every one of those situations is harmful? Where are the stats for this? I'll bet there are more kids harmed in heterosexual parent families than in homosexual parent families. I'll bet the number is staggering! While "my Christianity" leans toward a ban of sorts, my logic says God can and does work through much worse.
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BavarianWheels wrote:Great point. Good scenario. In a theocratic society "we", the Christians, could make laws to keep this from happening. I am with you in the general sense.

Thanks Bav, I sometimes get on a rant. I for one don't know where to draw the line. I know that sin is wrong no matter what it is.

BavarianWheels wrote: However we do not live within a theocracy. There is no law against being a homosexual. (do we as Christians want such a law? I don't) .

I think making laws about this is a double edged sword. I don't see anything in scripture where Christ ever forced anyone to follow him. You can push people away from Christ very quickly. But, I cant help wondering about a moral foundation or laws set by the greater good of our country.

BavarianWheels wrote: I agree that children shouldn't be given over to homosexual couples (in my Christian morals thinking) but who's to say every one of those situations is harmful? Where are the stats for this? .

I think the harm is the belief there is a such thing as acceptable sins. As far as stats go, I think more childern belong to heterosexual couples than homosexual couples. Some homosexual stats claim 1 in 20 (I find that hard to believe), others claim 1 in 60. The stats would have to be homosexual couples who have children which is more like 1 in 100. I won't post links on stats from any pro-homosexual links here. But, I would like to see per capita what the numbers are.

BavarianWheels wrote:I'll bet there are more kids harmed in heterosexual parent families than in homosexual parent families. I'll bet the number is staggering! While "my Christianity" leans toward a ban of sorts, my logic says God can and does work through much worse.

You and I are not far from off on our beliefs. I guess this depends on our definition of harm. I see children as innocent. Teaching them this lifestyle is ok, is harmful IMO. Matthew 18:6

Again, I don't know what the right answer is. But, I know it makes my blood boil.

sinnerbybirth wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:I'll bet there are more kids harmed in heterosexual parent families than in homosexual parent families. I'll bet the number is staggering! While "my Christianity" leans toward a ban of sorts, my logic says God can and does work through much worse.

You and I are not far from off on our beliefs. I guess this depends on our definition of harm. I see children as innocent. Teaching them this lifestyle is ok, is harmful IMO. Matthew 18:6

Again, I don't know what the right answer is. But, I know it makes my blood boil.

I would say we disagree on one point (if this is what you mean by 'innocent'). Children are not innocent. If they were, we would not all be sinful from conception. I think the point of what is mentioned in Matthew 18 and becoming like a child is to say that children believe their parents/elders and follow without much question. They are "innocent" in that they have no other ideas other than what they are told. They believe simply because that's what they are told to do. Likewise we should strive to be like children in our Christian walk. Too many want a supernatural revealing...and most, if not all, never get this.

On the homosexual parent side, I don't know of any parent, homosexual or heterosexual that teaches sexual preference. Even if a child is "taught" homosexuality as their lifestyle, it could never be if they know in their heart they are heterosexual. There can be exceptions, I don't paint this broadly and say it can't happen...it might, but I think the chances are very low. This seems to be a contradiction with children following their parents instruction. I don't believe the gay community is out to CREATE a homosexual where there isn't one. If this be true, how then do we get gay people if most come from hetero families?

Is it harmful? There's a chance, of course. However what is more harmful, a gay couple wanting a child to love and nurture as their own or a young boy hitting up every girl willing to give it up to him creating babies all over the place? Which child(ren) are more harmed and/or harm society?
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BavarianWheels wrote:I would say we disagree on one point (if this is what you mean by 'innocent'). Children are not innocent. If they were, we would not all be sinful from conception. I think the point of what is mentioned in Matthew 18 and becoming like a child is to say that children believe their parents/elders and follow without much question. They are "innocent" in that they have no other ideas other than what they are told. They believe simply because that's what they are told to do. Likewise we should strive to be like children in our Christian walk. Too many want a supernatural revealing...and most, if not all, never get this.
On the homosexual parent side, I don't know of any parent, homosexual or heterosexual that teaches sexual preference. Even if a child is "taught" homosexuality as their lifestyle, it could never be if they know in their heart they are heterosexual. There can be exceptions, I don't paint this broadly and say it can't happen...it might, but I think the chances are very low. This seems to be a contradiction with children following their parents instruction. I don't believe the gay community is out to CREATE a homosexual where there isn't one. If this be true, how then do we get gay people if most come from hetero families?
Is it harmful? There's a chance, of course. However what is more harmful, a gay couple wanting a child to love and nurture as their own or a young boy hitting up every girl willing to give it up to him creating babies all over the place? Which child(ren) are more harmed and/or harm society?

What I ment by being "taught" is, that this is not something that is always convayed verbally. For instance, my dad was an alcoholic when I was very young. I though growing up that it was normal. Later in life, I started down that same path. He never verbally taught me this. I learned this by my observation of him. I believe the same applies to homosexual parents. Or, any kind of behavior a parent conducts around the children they are raising. The impression a parent make on a child is carried over into their life as normal behavior.

BavarianWheels wrote: I'm not sure why I was banned for a week, but I took it in stride. No reason was given, nor did I get any PM's about anything.

Are we playing the victim now? I put the reason for the ban was for you to cool off a bit..

BavarianWheels wrote:I don't think you understand what, in essence, you are arguing against here.

I don't think you understand either.. Again.. Sin has nothing to do with genetics.. Absolutely nothing. That is my claim. It's all about the heart and soul. It's a spiritual problem not a physical one.. Jeremiah 17:9

BavarianWheels wrote:When we get down to the nitty-gritty, we all have a genetic/hereditary problem known as the sin nature handed down from Adam. Are you saying you can change your genetics?

That's funny because earlier you stated that Christ was the "drug" that can cure all... No. We can't change our genetics.. But we can change our heart with God's help of course.

BavarianWheels wrote:There is no way we can change our genetics because of this heredity.

Then you can't change your sin behavior... You are "locked" in your sins...

BavarianWheels wrote:Again you charge me with nonesense "beliefs"...that of sin no longer being sin. I challenge you to show where EVER I have said that homosexual acts are not a sin because of genetics. The only thing I have said about homosexuals and genetics is simply that homosexuality is more than likely NOT a choice lifestyle given the fact of the majority of homosexuals claiming they have known their difference from an early age...

Again I disagree.. So where does it stop Bav? Why can't I have a car stealing gene or a murdering gene? Sin is not a choice? Prove it and prove it to God... Why did Jesus tell the prostitute not to sin anymore? John 8:11

BavarianWheels wrote:that SIN has so degenerated this world that, like sin itself was handed down, so sin has manipulated our genetics to even change nature. Does this idea then make the acts of homosexuals righteous acts? Not at all. It simply makes the argument that BEING homosexual is no more a sin than BEING a heterosexual. Both have perversions that, if Christian, must be dealt with.

So what does this prove? All sins are equal? So? Again so where does it stop? A murder gene, a stealing gene, an anger gene, etc...

BavarianWheels wrote:With sin in the mix, of course it's an 'alternative lifestyle'...which world are you living in that it isn't? Is the gay community a myth?

So then your 'yes' answer to the question means you uphold heterosexual perversion as "better" sins? I'm not sure, but it seems to be. Maybe you should clarify what you mean when you agree that heterosexuals with sexual perversion problems can still be Christians. Let's give the example of a male with a sexual addiction for females that includes, among others, sodomy.

Help me understand the 'yes' to the question.
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Equality of sins.. Nice.. There is no victory over sins.. Might as well take an axe to the bible then.. Romans 6:22-23, 1 Cor 6:11, Romans 6: 13-14.

BavarianWheels wrote:
Great point. Good scenario. In a theocratic society "we", the Christians, could make laws to keep this from happening. I am with you in the general sense. However we do not live within a theocracy. There is no law against being a homosexual. (do we as Christians want such a law? I don't) I agree that children shouldn't be given over to homosexual couples (in my Christian morals thinking) but who's to say every one of those situations is harmful? Where are the stats for this? I'll bet there are more kids harmed in heterosexual parent families than in homosexual parent families. I'll bet the number is staggering! While "my Christianity" leans toward a ban of sorts, my logic says God can and does work through much worse.
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Sure where are the stats? And what does God say about it? Who cares... Imagine that God wanting a father (male) and mother (female) for a child. How dare He... Genesis 2:20-24

To prevent this discussion going further awry I'm locking this thread.