Evidence for God from Science

jlay,

I brought up the Sacraments, not to discuss them in detail, but to give an example of what I believe saves us.
Faith in Christ, accompanied by our actions, saves us. Faith, repentance, the Holy Sacraments, and honestly trying to follow Christ in our actions; This is what saves us. It is my belief that salvation is more than a debt we can't pay to a Judge so Jesus pays it for us, as I've heard some evangelical Protestants say. It is a healing of our mind, heart, soul, and body. Healing from our sin is a process. Its like being healed of cancer. It is a process, and Jesus is our Healer. We are healed by Him through faith, repentance, and the Sacraments. That's why I don't believe we are saved now. We are still in the process of being healed.

B.W.,

Where is your faith!

In the Lord

In other words does this mean you must earn it or show yourself worthy to become saved?

Certainly not. We are not saved by faith alone, and we are not saved by works alone. We must first have faith, and the works we do because of that faith perfect and complete our faith.

So you are stating that your human Free Will trumps God?

Question, are you, or better stated is (human) free will, more powerful than God?

No, but He allows us to have our free will. And it's not that He can't over power it, it's that He won't over power it.

More importantly, I am hearing you state that you do not want him to keep you from walking away by over powering your free will – correct?

Well, really, I can't say if I want Him to or not, because I just don't believe He does that, anyway.

I hate to be the one to tell you this James

Don't worry, I've heard it before.

Thus what I hear you state is that God must submit to your free will and not to His own will to save you the moment you first believed to the uttermost for fear of violating human free will

God is afraid of nothing. He won't violate our free will because He loves us. If we are forced to love Him, then its not real love. Love is consentual. Our relationship with God is like a marriage. We are there because of our free will, and if we want to leave, He will not forbid us.

Where is your faith?

In God.

God violated Jonah’s free will, if not, a heathen city would not have repented. If He had not violated my free will, I would have never consented to the gospel message. Neither would you.

No He didn't. He did what was necessary to get Jonah's attention, but He did not force him to repent.

Don’t you want to take him at his word that he will never leave you or forsake you

I do believe this. But at the same time, He will not stay with me if He is not welcome.

that you can do better job keeping yourself saved rather than He?

I never said that. I said we are saved by His grace through faith, and we must have faith working in love.

No I need not your help – I have my free will – you can’t take from me God – you can’t na na na-na-na. I just hope in the future I can do enough good that in the end you God can accept me and save me but I reserve the right to walk away…just in case…don’t want you to stop that – no….

Does no one hear me when I say we are saved by grace through faith?

Sounds like to me, your faith is in your free will. You have more faith in falling away than in the Lord who is more than able to keep you forever saved.

I will be saved when I'm saved. I will be saved when, by His grace, I have fought the good fight, finished the race, and kept the Faith {2 Timothy 4:7}.

James, when does salvation begin?

It begins at Holy Baptism and is completed on the Day we are Resurrected.

What will it take before you become fully persuaded that nothing will separate you from God’s love?

Nothing can or will seperate me from the love of God, for God is love {1 John 4:16}.

The prayer I would like you to pray – are you afraid God will give you a serpent or a scorpion instead of the good the prayer ask for? Where is your faith? How can you do works of love when you are not fully convinced that He loves you enough to hold you and never let you go?

People around here seem to be making assumptions of what I believe. I don't doubt God's love. The fact that He allows us to have free-will is part of that love.

Where is your faith!

In the Lord Jesus.

Does no one hear me when I say we are saved by grace through faith?

James, the question is, do you hear it? Obviously we are going in circles now.
The real issue is, Jesus + what = salvation. You have made it clear that your 'concept of faith' + 'your religion' = salvation. Possibly, maybe, if you do the best you can. Have you done the best you can, James? Honestly? (rhetorical)

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is what I call a false gospel. I have no doubt that you are sincere in what you believe. That you believe you have actual faith that our Lord speaks of. And you may very well. However, adding anything to the finished work of Christ and His instructions for those who would simply, beleive, is adding your performance to the free gift of salvation. Your statements about communion and church only further show how far apart we are on this matter.

No, but He allows us to have our free will. And it's not that He can't over power it, it's that He won't over power it.

You are right James. He has given you the free will to trust in His free gift of salvation. Or, to distort it with task keeping as defined by your religious affiliation.

I could go on and on but it is obvious that it is not going anywhere. I wish you nothing but the best.

jlay,

It seems you're done with the conversation, but I'm going to go ahead and and answer your post, anyway.

Possibly, maybe, if you do the best you can. Have you done the best you can, James? Honestly? (rhetorical)

I can't speak for anyone else, but this is what I call a false gospel.

So, you think one has to just "believe" to be saved? Of course we do have to believe, but we don't have to resist tempation, pray, or things like that? We don't even have to live the Christian life the best we can? Well, it would be nice if we did, but its not essential, right? To me, that's the false gospel.

That you believe you have actual faith that our Lord speaks of.

I believe the concept of faith I have is the faith the Lord speak of. Personally, I struggle in this. The Christian life is a stuggle.

However, adding anything to the finished work of Christ and His instructions for those who would simply, beleive, is adding your performance to the free gift of salvation.

Is believing not something we do?

I could go on and on but it is obvious that it is not going anywhere.

It does seem to be going in circles.

I wish you nothing but the best.

I wish you the best, too.

James,

Do not tell me what I am saying. I know very well what I'm saying and it's not that.
No matter how many good works we do, apart from faith, we cannot obtain salvation. THAT is working our way to heaven. And that is what I'm saying I do not believe. We must have faith, then work out our faith.

This is what I see as the crucial difference between what you and your religion believes, and what the Bible teaches. I see you saying that someone must have faith, and then work out that faith. And still not be certain of salvation. The Bible says that someone must have faith, and then the Holy Spirit in us produces the good works as evidence of that saving faith. However you try to spin it, your gospel needs human works as part of what has to be done in order to even have a chance of being saved. Your gospel: faith plus working out that faith by our own strength. God's Gospel: Faith, then God working through us to produce good works. Your gospel is no different than any other false gospel that needs our own strength for salvation.

RickD,

Its not by our own strength. We are given the power of Christ to do this. But this doesn't mean good works, or following Christ, comes easily to us.

And if we are in disagreement, it is not the Bible I disagree with; it is your interpretation of the Bible I disagree with.

James,

And that is what I'm saying I do not believe. We must have faith, then work out our faith.

Then, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by " We must have faith, then work out our faith." That seems like you're saying that we must work out our faith with our own power for salvation. If you are saying that we must have faith, and then God in us works out our faith, then that is what my "interpretation" of the Bible is. I'm just not sure what the difference between what you're saying, and any other religion that includes works as a requirement of salvation.

Its not by our own strength. We are given the power of Christ to do this. But this doesn't mean good works, or following Christ, comes easily to us.

The difference I see is that following Christ for you is part of working out your salvation. For me, following Christ happened after The Holy Spirit came into me to allow me to be able to follow Christ after God saved me. My human nature will always be at odds with my new creature when it comes to following Christ. Almost like a civil war inside me. One side being the sinful nature, and the other side being the new creature in Christ.

And if we are in disagreement, it is not the Bible I disagree with; it is your interpretation of the Bible I disagree with

Ok, I will agree there. The only thing left that I have to say is that I hope you aren't weighed down too much by the enormous burden you have laid upon yourself. Let go, and have faith in the promise of God:John 3:16. It's God's work that saved us, just believe on Him, not your works.

RickD,

That seems like you're saying that we must work out our faith with our own power for salvation.

No, God gives us the grace we need; indeed, we can do nothing without Him{St. John 15:5}. But we still have to meet Him part of the way. Even those who say "by faith alone," think it is up to us to at least have faith. Even in doing good works, we must try to do them, and God will give us the grace we need to accomplish them. It's a team effort, all the way.

If you are saying that we must have faith, and then God in us works out our faith, then that is what my "interpretation" of the Bible is

Yes, God does work in us, but that is not to say if we have the Holy Spirit, good fruit flows forth without any complication. Its very hard to live the Christian life. And we must force ourselves to do good. And God gives us the grace necessary to do this. It is not God's grace OR our efforts; its God's grace AND our efforts.

For me, following Christ happened after The Holy Spirit came into me to allow me to be able to follow Christ

We are not at odds here. I follow Christ by His strength, and not by myself. But my efforts and His strength must be put together. He will not make me do good.

My human nature will always be at odds with my new creature when it comes to following Christ. Almost like a civil war inside me. One side being the sinful nature, and the other side being the new creature in Christ.

I agree.
And another note about Salvation by faith and works:

There is much Scripture for what I am saying. I would not hold this view, or be Orthodox, if I thought it was contrary to Scripture.

St. Matthew 5:16, St. Matthew 6:14-15, St. Matthew 7:19, St. Matthew 25:31-46, St. Luke 6:37, St. Luke 6:46, Ephesians 2:8-10, Philippians 2:12-13, St. Titus 3:8,14, St. James 2:14-26, Revelation 19:8, Revelation 22:12


We must have good works if faith in Christ is there. Do you have faith? Prove it. That is a requirement for all of us.
Can we truly be called a Christian if we are nasty to people, or don't try to help our fellow man who is made in the image of God? Can we be a Christian if we don't follow the commandments of the Lord? Will we truly be saved by just believing, and not doing? Or maybe it would be nice if we were kind and helped others, but its not essential, right?
No, it is essential.
Are we to ignore the commandments of the Lord? No, we must actually follow Him.