Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:38 pm**

It's a simple hypothesis that could be shown very easily byt any number of the proponents of the diet. I noticed you didn't even address the critique I gave about the amount of water in general.

But I did address it here:

. Because I would be willing to bet money that what really helps is not that it is "special" water but that it is simply water.

And, you would be wrong. I posted this back on page 3:

I figured out how much $ we spent on bottled water. The price of that would exceed the price of water from my machine.

My wife and I drank bottles upon bottles of water. We live in Florida, and realize that we need to be hydrated. What we didn't realize is that most of the bottled water was highly acidic, and just contributed to the metabolic acids in our system. One thing my brother in law noticed anout the alkaline water was that he didn't get heartburn when he drank it like he did when he drank bottled water. That's because of the acidity of the bottled water.

I tested your critique myself.

Want to test that? Simply control the diets of both groups, control the background variables such as overall health, and of course make it a blind study where the consumers did not know what kind of water they were drinking.

the problem is that the water tastes different than bottled water. And it is absorbed into the body easier. If you drink equal amounts of bottled water and ionized alkaline water, you'll feel more bloated after drinking the bottled water. So, even if it was a "blind" test, someone who is used to drinking bottled or tap water would notice a difference.

LOok, I'm not denying that diet can influence disease. I AM denying that this particular diet and those particular claims have any merit! Especially with the sources that you have provided ...

That's fine. If you're interested to search on your own, you might reach a different conclusion. Something that "convinced" me might not convince you. You might find something different that i haven't even noticed. We all look at the same things through different glasses.

However, all that being said, I agree to disagree..

that's fine as well. i wont bother you anymore with this subject.

We ALL produce uric acid, but not from excessive acidic foods. In fact, it's not the levels of acid in the foods that lead to the production of uric acid but the amount of purines that the patients must control.

all the following causes for the buildup of uric acid are the same things that happen when we are too acidic, or are causes of acidity.

Obesity
# Being overweight can lead to an increased likelihood of developing gout.
Alcohol Intake
# Drinking too much can interfere with the body's ability to rid itself of uric acid.
Dietary Factors
# Diets high in red meat and shellfish can lead to a buildup of uric acid.
Medications
# Medications such as aspirin, diuretics and certain chemotherapy drugs can increase the risk of developing gout.
Genetic Factors
# Approximately one-fifth of people who have gout also have a family history of the disease, and men are more likely to get the disease than women. It is also more common in adults than in children.

Read more: What Causes Uric Acid Build Up? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_4910768_cause ... z12vjKMcP5

Posted: **Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:12 pm**

RickD wrote: But I did address it here:

.

zoegirl wrote:Because I would be willing to bet money that what really helps is not that it is "special" water but that it is simply water.

Let me clarify...what I am implying is not whether or not the water is "special" or different that regular water (although I'm still not convinced that it is, but let's put that aside for now). I am implying that it is not the fancy water itself that is causing any effects, but rather the fact that the people are drinking more water, period.

What I would test is whether simply drinking any water in the same amount as you do would have the same affect as drinking the "Fancy" water.

And, you would be wrong. I posted this back on page 3:

I figured out how much $ we spent on bottled water. The price of that would exceed the price of water from my machine.

My wife and I drank bottles upon bottles of water. We live in Florida, and realize that we need to be hydrated. What we didn't realize is that most of the bottled water was highly acidic, and just contributed to the metabolic acids in our system.

One thing my brother in law noticed anout the alkaline water was that he didn't get heartburn when he drank it like he did when he drank bottled water. That's because of the acidity of the bottled water.

ummm, yeah, and you don't need anything fancy to acheive that...it's called Tums or even baking soda. NO need to pay money there

I tested your critique myself.

And this is not a valid test....there are no control variables or even control groups. Statistically it is invalid and you simply haven't been able to isolate any of the other variables, is it simply the placebo affect?

the problem is that the water tastes different than bottled water. And it is absorbed into the body easier. If you drink equal amounts of bottled water and ionized alkaline water, you'll feel more bloated after drinking the bottled water. So, even if it was a "blind" test, someone who is used to drinking bottled orr tap water would notice a difference.

What source do you have that it is absorbed into the body easier? What physiological evidence is there that the intestinal cells can absorb this better?

And you could control for taste very easily. ....bottomline....it hasn't been done....but it could very easily.

all the following causes for the buildup of uric acid are the same things that happen when we are too acidic, or are causes of acidity.Obesity
# Being overweight can lead to an increased likelihood of developing gout.
Alcohol Intake
# Drinking too much can interfere with the body's ability to rid itself of uric acid.
Dietary Factors
# Diets high in red meat and shellfish can lead to a buildup of uric acid.
Medications
# Medications such as aspirin, diuretics and certain chemotherapy drugs can increase the risk of developing gout.
Genetic Factors
# Approximately one-fifth of people who have gout also have a family history of the disease, and men are more likely to get the disease than women. It is also more common in adults than in children.

Sure, what's your point? NOne of these are caused by acidic diets. All of them interfere with PURINE metabolism, not acid-base balance in the body.

Saying that uric acid builds up is not the same as claiming that the body is acidic. It's a unique problem is metabolic processing of certain molecule and it is not an indication of an over-all acid-base problem in the body.

I'm not disputing the facts on gout....but that is NOT proof of acid diets on metabolism....or even proof about the effect of "alkaline" water

Posted: **Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:01 am**

Let me clarify...what I am implying is not whether or not the water is "special" or different that regular water (although I'm still not convinced that it is, but let's put that aside for now). I am implying that it is not the fancy water itself that is causing any effects, but rather the fact that the people are drinking more water, period

All I can attest to is how alkaline ionized water has helped me. I told you that I used to drink a lot of bottled water before I got my machine. I used to drink a lot of tap water filtered through my refrigerator filter as well. So, I can tell you that when I started drinking the water from my machine, I noticed the benefits that I spoke about. Drinking bottled and tap water=no benefits. Switch to drinking ionized alkaline water=pain in joints gone, not dehydrated, less tired, no more waking up with acid reflux, haven't been sick, no allergies, no more sinus infections. So, it wasn't the drinking of more water like you said. It was the change in the kind of water that made the difference with me. Another thing I noticed as well as my Brother in law, when we started drinking alkaline water, we were peeing a lot more for the same amount of water. this is explained by how I said it detoxifies the body. One way our bodies remove toxins is by urinating.

What I would test is whether simply drinking any water in the same amount as you do would have the same affect as drinking the "Fancy" water

As stated above, drank a lot of water before, drink a lot of water now.

ummm, yeah, and you don't need anything fancy to acheive that...it's called Tums or even baking soda. NO need to pay money there

Lil miss smartypants, I just used that example to show that even when he drank the alkaline water, he noticed a difference. The alkalinity is just one benefit of the water. Imo the negative orp is much more important. You can look up the significance that orp has yourself if you're interested.

And this is not a valid test....there are no control variables or even control groups. Statistically it is invalid and you simply haven't been able to isolate any of the other variables, is it simply the placebo affect?

It may be invalid to you, but as I told you before, I haven't changed any other part of my diet. I still eat a lot of junk.Your claiming it may be the placebo effect is just grasping at straws. I'm honestly trying to tell you something that I believe can help you with your painful symptoms, and tell you of my own experience, and you tell me that it's the placebo effect? Like I told Bart, the water has either helped me like I said, or I'm lying to you.

What source do you have that it is absorbed into the body easier? What physiological evidence is there that the intestinal cells can absorb this better

Any website that describes the benefits of ionized alkaline water would explain how it's absorbed better. That doesn't mean you would believe what they say though.

And you could control for taste very easily. ....bottomline....it hasn't been done....but it could very easily.

Not sure how one could do that. Maybe a clothespin on the nose? 8 ph water tastes different than 7ph. 9 and 10 ph taste different than 8. Each time the ph is raised by 1 point(from 7 to 8, or 9 to 10) it means the water is 10 times more alkaline. If you raise the ph from 7 to 10, it makes the water 1000 times more alkaline, not 30 times. It also lowers the orp as well, giving the water a "stronger" taste.

Sure, what's your point? NOne of these are caused by acidic diets. All of them interfere with PURINE metabolism, not acid-base balance in the body

I just meant that alcohol is very acidic to the body. As well as red meat, shellfish, and especially aspirin, diuretics, and chemotherapy medicine. I've never heard of the term purine, so I did a quick search. I found that plant based foods are low in purine. Raw plant foods are also the most alkaline foods. Don't you see a connection there?

Saying that uric acid builds up is not the same as claiming that the body is acidic. It's a unique problem is metabolic processing of certain molecule and it is not an indication of an over-all acid-base problem in the body.

It's not far off. They say uric acid build up is caused by eating foods that cause a build up of uric acid.(red meats, and shellfish for example) Alkaline food proponents say it is caused by eating foods that promote acidity in the body.(red meat, and shellfish are among the most acidic foods)

I'm not disputing the facts on gout....but that is NOT proof of acid diets on metabolism....or even proof about the effect of "alkaline" water

Zoe, add up everything I'm telling you and the things you're saying. They do connect with each other. What I'm saying is similar to what you're saying. It's just a different way to understand it. It's a very simple concept. That's why I understood it.

Posted: **Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:11 am**

Any website that describes the benefits of ionized alkaline water would explain how it's absorbed better. That doesn't mean you would believe what they say though.

NO, they don't...they say a lot of vague promises and claims but they have NO evidence or clear mechanism of how that water is absorbed differently. I have already checked....I am asking YOU (since you are more familiar) if you have ANY source that can claim to understand from an anatomical or physiological level, how the small intestine and large intestine cells interact differently with the water molecules and if there is any empirical studies testing the absorption rate of both waters. Believe me I have checked and there is nothing I can find.

Water is absorbed through osmosis through the cell membrane and through protein channels called aquaporins. If you can find any evidence showing that the alkaline water interacts any differenly than I would be more prone to believe the claims, but there aren't any sources that *credibly* show that the water behaves any differently between other water molecules or with the intestinal cells. I have already checked myself but I am asking you to show me what you have. I am not trying to be evasive, I do my research but the sites that claim this do only that....offer vague claims that water behaves differently and absorbs better....

I just meant that alcohol is very acidic to the body. As well as red meat, shellfish, and especially aspirin, diuretics, and chemotherapy medicine. I've never heard of the term purine, so I did a quick search. I found that plant based foods are low in purine. Raw plant foods are also the most alkaline foods. Don't you see a connection there?

But clearly the disease process is NOT caused by the levels of acids in the food....it is caused by the fact that the people who have gout cannot process the purines in the food at the same level as others. It is not the levels of acids/bases in the foods, but the fact that there is less purine in the foods that causes the overproduction of uric acid (or under secretion in the urine). In other words, an acid/base imbalance is not the cause of gout. AS far as the medicines go, they are not sure how they cause the uric acid production, but it's not the fact that these are acidic.

In the end, of course you can drink whatever you want with regards to fancy water. I'm not even denying that minerals or alkaline are fine or problematic. It;s the claim that these can cure serious diseases or that the water or foods that we consume are the reason for them.

Posted: **Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:41 am**

Zoe, check your inbox. Sorry I haven't responded sooner.

Posted: **Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:32 am**

no worries, I think we have presented all the arguments on both sides. You know what I consider to be valid evidence and I am not convinced of the effects of any acid-base imbalance models of disease progression, nor on the effects of alkaline water.

I think at this point agreeing to disagree might be the best at this point

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:48 pm**

zoegirl wrote:no worries, I think we have presented all the arguments on both sides. You know what I consider to be valid evidence and I am not convinced of the effects of any acid-base imbalance models of disease progression, nor on the effects of alkaline water.

I think at this point agreeing to disagree might be the best at this point

Zoe, I wish I was knowledgeable enough to present all the arguments for "my side". I realize what you consider to be valid evidence, and I wish I could provide you with the evidence you're looking for. I haven't found any clinical studies on people, just animals. If you are looking for scientific, clinical studies to be convinced, then I can understand how you feel. I have heard that the University of Georgia may be conducting studies at the present time, but who knows? If, as I believe, that ionized alkaline water is just beginning to be recognized in America, then there should be more info, and possibly studies in the future. So, at this time, with the info you have available, I guess we can agree to disagree. if I come across anything that I believe is a real study, and this thread is still open, I may post it. I have emailed a website that claims to have information on actual studies. If that turns out anything fruitful, I'll post it.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:36 pm**

Are bodies are designed to heal themselves. And anything that can make the body more efficient should be a good thing.
I've been studying the water, and other things. There is a pretty good consensus that anti-oxidents are a good thing. And I found that hydrogen is one of, if not the best.

I'm a bit of a health and exercise nut. I turned 40 this year and weigh what I did in highschool (172 pds.) and I am all for anything that will improve health. I know how much better I feel after losing 25 pds. I haven't used any of the purifiers due to the cost, but I have tried some of the alkaline waters and I do confess that I feel a difference. Due to the cost of bottled water, and all the plastics we put into the landfill, one of purifiers would pay off in the long run. And that is only if you consider the cost of drinking bottled water, and ignore any health claims.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:59 pm**

jlay wrote:Are bodies are designed to heal themselves. And anything that can make the body more efficient should be a good thing.
I've been studying the water, and other things. There is a pretty good consensus that anti-oxidents are a good thing. And I found that hydrogen is one of, if not the best.

I'm a bit of a health and exercise nut. I turned 40 this year and weigh what I did in highschool (172 pds.) and I am all for anything that will improve health. I know how much better I feel after losing 25 pds. I haven't used any of the purifiers due to the cost, but I have tried some of the alkaline waters and I do confess that I feel a difference. Due to the cost of bottled water, and all the plastics we put into the landfill, one of purifiers would pay off in the long run. And that is only if you consider the cost of drinking bottled water, and ignore any health claims.

Thank you jlay. The check will be in the mail tomorrow as we discussed

. But seriously, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one here that thinks that there is something behind the claims made by alkaline ionized alkaline water proponents. I do agree with you that the antioxidant, and detoxifying properties of the water are what has impressed me the most. The only down side to buying bottled alkaline water is that the -orp does not stay more than a few days. That's why the most benefits are had by drinking the water immediately from the machine. As far as the cost, the machine I have, is from a company that has been making these machines for at least 20 years now. They have a very good reputation in the business, and a couple of months after I got my machine, they started offering a lifetime warranty on their machines. The lady that sold me my machine started using a ionized alkaline water machine in the 1980's. That same machine she started with was still being used last year by someone in her family. The machines by reputable companies do last a while. If I take the cost of my machine, and divide it over 5 years, it would only cost about a dollar a day for as much water as we can drink. If we keep the machine longer than 5 years, then it's even cheaper. We spent at least 4 times that each day on bottled water. So, even if the machine does nothing but filter contaminants out of our water, then it's a bargain. These machines will be popular here in the US in the near future when more people see for themselves what benefits they have. And, I believe the prices will probably come down as well.

Posted: **Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:32 pm**

Still no proof of any kind and still no link to any disease or curative powers (other than just plain simple good nutrition and drinking water, which of course helps).

Eating plenty of good veggies, fruit are definitely awesome, especially for their pigments. Water is of course great. Neither, however, are curative in and of themselves.

Our bodies cannot cure and heal plenty of diseases....are we denying now some basic truths of disease etiology? Have we forgotten how awful mortality rates of even 100 years ago? Even before the nastiness of processed foods and awful toxins, with plenty of water and good food, plenty of people became sick and died.

Posted: **Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:22 am**

Still no proof of any kind and still no link to any disease or curative powers (other than just plain simple good nutrition and drinking water, which of course helps).

There's plenty of proof. Just not the kind of proof that you're looking for. There was enough proof for me and many others. There are many testimonials that people have done. Do you really think EVERY testimonial is wrong?

Still no proof of any kind and still no link to any disease or curative powers (other than just plain simple good nutrition and drinking water, which of course helps).

Again, a strawman argument. You don't understand what cancer is. Cancer is healthy cells that have gone cancerous as a result of metabolic acids. Cancer and disease cannot thrive in an alkaline environment.

Our bodies cannot cure and heal plenty of diseases....are we denying now some basic truths of disease etiology? Have we forgotten how awful mortality rates of even 100 years ago? Even before the nastiness of processed foods and awful toxins, with plenty of water and good food, plenty of people became sick and died.

You are making this as a statement of fact? Or, is it just your opinion? There are plenty of people that have shown that their bodies healed themselves by alkaline water and foods. You can choose to believe them or continue to be skeptical. I don't think anyone is saying that alkaline water and foods help make man physically immortal. Zoe, as you do more research, you may see that what you perceive as basic truths of disease etiology, aren't perceived as truths by everyone. Maybe someday you'll see the benefits of alkaline ionized water, and alkaline foods. If someone has a serious condition such as a cancerous condition, simply eating vegetables may not be enough to make the cells healthy again. That person needs to stop ingesting the acidic foods, medicine, and toxins in the water supply, as well as trying to get as close to 100% of his foods and drinks from alkaline sources. Then, when the health is restored, he can go to a more manageable, 80%-20%, or 75%-25% alkaline to healthy acidic food ratio. I'm willing to let this rest. If you keep posting these opinions that I believe are wrong however, I'll continue to post why they are wrong.

Posted: **Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:29 am**

Alkaline Cure for Cancer
By an eHow Contributor
I want to do this! What's This?

The alkaline cancer cure is a suggested cure for cancer, which involves eating a specialized diet designed to adjust the acid/alkaline base in the body. Because some people believe tumors grow and thrive in acidic environments, the premise behind an acid alkaline diet is that making a body more alkaline will help to cure cancer.

Why Would Alkaline Cure Cancer?
1. Our bodies have a natural pH balance, which is the balance between acid and alkaline. According to Lymphoma Nation, various test tube studies have shown that tumors and cancer cells tend to grow faster in acidic environments, and that chemotherapy works better on tumors surrounded by an alkaline environment. Therefore, those who believe in alkaline cures believe that we can make our bodies more alkaline and less acidic by eating alkaline foods and refraining from eating acidic foods. The belief is that by creating an alkaline environment, the cancer will be less likely to grow and cancer treatments will be more effective.
How does the Alklaine Cure work
2. Proponents of the alkaline cure believe that the acid/alkaline pH balance in the body can be affected by diet. Patients are advised to eat onions, lettuce, ginger, broccoli, carrots, celery, tomatoes, peppers, squash, garlic, cucumber, parsley, basil, kidney beans, squash, olive oil, lemons, limes and watermelon because these are considered alkaline foods. Patients are advised to refrain from eating meat, dairy products, sugar, white flour, wheat and pasta because these are acidic foods. This diet will allegedly change the pH balance of the body, creating an inhospitable environment for cancer.
Does it Work?
3. Some medical professionals do not believe the alkaline cure is an effective cure for cancer. Lymphoma Nation suggests that the fundamental premise behind the cure--that tumors thrive in acidic environments and fail in alkaline environments--is unproven. Lymphoma Nation states that just because this result has been observed in test tubes, there is no reason to suggest it can be recreated in humans. Furthermore, doctors at Bringham and Women's Hospital, which is a teaching hospital associated with Harvard University, argue that diet will not have a lasting impact on the acid/base pH balance in the body, because the body self regulates its pH balance using breathing and the excretory system.

However, According to Cancer Cure.org, there are medical professionals, most notably Carl J. Reich, M.D. and Bob Barefoot, who endorse the alkaline diet as an effective alternative therapy for cancer.

Read more: Alkaline Cure for Cancer | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/way_5285958_alkalin ... z13THQZ1Vn

Posted: **Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:42 am**

Dr Otto Warburg won a nobel prize for his discovery about how cancerous cells can't live in an oxygenated environment. This discovery was about 80 years ago. It's not really new to believe what I'm saying.

Posted: **Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:06 am**

Rick, I suspect zoe knows what cancer is. Do you really want to promote your argument by attempting to portray those who disagree with you as ignorant? I know what cancer is too, if you wish to try that track. I've been a survivor of it for 24 years and I serve as a volunteer chaplain for the American Cancer Society.

Endorsement by medical professionals as an "alternative therapy" means it's something that remains unproven but in the absence of anything that medicine can do, it's worth a shot. That's not hard evidence. It carries about as much weight as an infomercial where a doctor endorses a diet pill. It's an advertising technique appealing to individual authority where no collective authority exists.

Probably not what you want to hear, but there it is.

bart

Posted: **Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:29 am**

Our bodies cannot cure and heal plenty of diseases....are we denying now some basic truths of disease etiology? Have we forgotten how awful mortality rates of even 100 years ago? Even before the nastiness of processed foods and awful toxins, with plenty of water and good food, plenty of people became sick and died.

How many of those deaths were due to impure water? You'd probably be shocked. Even today, millions of deaths occur due to water contamination.
If you think water quality was good 100 years ago, you need a history lesson.

Evidence for God from Science

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