Is Christian zionism sound doctrine?

[B. W.]

Yes same post.. Makes sense to me..

Where did you come up with that??? It's simply an amazing read..

Ok I'm blinded now.. Blinded by the light of Christ. Ask and you shall receive..

I wrestle with God a lot - He wins everytime!

I learned a lot from our Jewish Messiah Believers – how to question, ask, seek, knock for God’s glory to be shown, not mine.

Here is another aside you learn from them, kind of interesting take on Paul and nothing to do with the topic:

Aside: Jews do not like Paul or his writings but to the Messianic Jews you learn a secret about Paul and why Paul was chosen to go as Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin (Rom 11:1). The tribe of Benjamin were the sling/stone throwers in Moses’ army and hence, Paul would throw the ROCK of Christ to the Gentiles to slay sin and bring salvation to light… We miss these kinds of things in our gentile traditions but to the Messianic Jews today they no longer dislike Paul but understand him better now and come to terms with what he wrote thru such little aside noted signs as this.
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[Gman]

I wrestle with God a lot - He wins everytime!

I learned a lot from our Jewish Messiah Believers – how to question, ask, seek, knock for God’s glory to be shown, not mine.

I just wasn't connecting the dots.. I actually was feeling kind of depressed and frustrated tonight thinking I'm off the path or something.. But then you come in with these Bruce Lee moves and it totally surprised me..

What the heck was that?? I thought, oh my God.. Oh. I see.. Duh. I just couldn't but it into words. Sorry bout that.

But I was close huh?

Here is another aside you learn from them, kind of interesting take on Paul and nothing to do with the topic:

Aside: Jews do not like Paul or his writings but to the Messianic Jews you learn a secret about Paul and why Paul was chosen to go as Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin (Rom 11:1). The tribe of Benjamin were the sling/stone throwers in Moses’ army and hence, Paul would throw the ROCK of Christ to the Gentiles to slay sin and bring salvation to light… We miss these kinds of things in our gentile traditions but to the Messianic Jews today they no longer dislike Paul but understand him better now and come to terms with what he wrote thru such little aside noted signs as this.
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Very coool.... I love these kind of stories!!

Thanks Bryan!!

[Canuckster1127]

So, the use of the word saints says yes, these are believers in Jerusalem, not the Jewish nation in general. Attempting to draw more than that from this passage is pretty shaky ground in my opinion.

Yes.. Technically you could argue that Bart. However in lieu of the progression of scripture, in this case the restoration of Israel, there does seem to be a certain, shall we say respect for these non-Christian Jews if it is from God. That is all I'm saying here..

And that's fine. Just find it in another passage than Rom 15:27 is all I'm saying. There's no context there to draw conclusions beyond Paul's taking a gift to Jewish believers. That's all I'm saying

[Gman]

And that's fine. Just find it in another passage than Rom 15:27 is all I'm saying. There's no context there to draw conclusions beyond Paul's taking a gift to Jewish believers. That's all I'm saying

Good point Bart... I'll note that. Thanks..

[Gman]

By the way folks.. I don't think anyone here, especially we mods, are Jew haters. At least I don't perceive that. Just for the record.. Sorry if I was a bit outspoken here in my beliefs.

In fact I don't recall anyone ever saying that... Ever.

[Gman]

I learned a lot from our Jewish Messiah Believers – how to question, ask, seek, knock for God’s glory to be shown, not mine.

Bryan,

Check this message out from El Shaddai Ministries (Pastors Mark Biltz) a messianic Jewish church. Watch him systematically decode the Bible with a Jewish swing.



It's simply amazing. I've never heard the Gospels taught this way.

[Gman]

I learned a lot from our Jewish Messiah Believers – how to question, ask, seek, knock for God’s glory to be shown, not mine.

Bryan,

Check this message out from El Shaddai Ministries (Pastors Mark Biltz) a messianic Jewish church. Watch him systematically decode the Bible with a Jewish swing.



It's simply amazing. I've never heard the Gospels taught this way.

Well ok.. This for my own records. Anyway when you get into about 13 minutes of this clip you will notice an interesting old story. You know the one about Isaac, Jacob, and Esau in Genesis? Jacob secretly disguised himself because he didn't want his identity to be known to Isaac Genesis 27:22-24, likewise Christ disguised himself because he didn't want his identity known to the Jews Matt 8:4. In fact, if Christ's or Jacob's identity was revealed, then the Gentiles wouldn't have been brought into the fold via Christ's death. God blinded Isaac's eyes (like Israel in Romans 11:25) to accomplish his purposes through Jacob.. In other words if God didn't blind Issac, the redemption process would have taken a completely different turn. Likewise, if Christ would have revealed himself to the Jews, Christ would not have been sacrificed and there would be no redemption for us.

Ok I get it now..

So who blinded Israel to their messiah? God did....

[B. W.]

I learned a lot from our Jewish Messiah Believers – how to question, ask, seek, knock for God’s glory to be shown, not mine.

Bryan,

Check this message out from El Shaddai Ministries (Pastors Mark Biltz) a messianic Jewish church. Watch him systematically decode the Bible with a Jewish swing.



It's simply amazing. I've never heard the Gospels taught this way.

Well ok.. This for my own records. Anyway when you get into about 13 minutes of this clip you will notice an interesting old story. You know the one about Isaac, Jacob, and Esau in Genesis? Jacob secretly disguised himself because he didn't want his identity to be known to Isaac Genesis 27:22-24, likewise Christ disguised himself because he didn't want his identity known to the Jews Matt 8:4. In fact, if Christ's or Jacob's identity was revealed, then the Gentiles wouldn't have been brought into the fold via Christ's death. God blinded Isaac's eyes (like Israel in Romans 11:25) to accomplish his purposes through Jacob.. In other words if God didn't blind Issac, the redemption process would have taken a completely different turn. Likewise, if Christ would have revealed himself to the Jews, Christ would not have been sacrificed and there would be no redemption for us.

Ok I get it now.. So who blinded Israel to their messiah? God did....

That was a good clip and it demonstrates the richness of what happens when Jews find the Messiah and how much more is within the bible that we gentile believers miss. This also demonstrates how they connect the dots with correct signs. Also note the question method he uses in the clip. First, a straight forward question and from their build on to uncover deeper truths that point to the Messiah, quite different than the western Hellenistic method most biblical school methods taught today do...

and yes a Partial hardening...
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[jlay]

In fact, if Christ's or Jacob's identity was revealed, then the Gentiles wouldn't have been brought into the fold via Christ's death.

Why do you say that? I don't see that at all. Christ's identity was revealed to the Jews. In fact all the early church was comprised of believing Jews. Nicodemus was a pharisee, and a believer.

if Christ would have revealed himself to the Jews, Christ would not have been sacrificed and there would be no redemption for us.

He did reveal himself through miracles, signs and wonders. There is also no way to say that Christ would not have been sacrificed. He most certainly could have been sacrificed even if the Jewish leadership had receieved Him.
Do you think Rome would have been OK with Christ? What would their response have been?

Jacob's disguise was one of deceipt. Jesus was not a deceiver.

[Gman]

In fact, if Christ's or Jacob's identity was revealed, then the Gentiles wouldn't have been brought into the fold via Christ's death.

Why do you say that? I don't see that at all. Christ's identity was revealed to the Jews. In fact all the early church was comprised of believing Jews. Nicodemus was a pharisee, and a believer.

No one is saying that there weren't righteous Jews at that time who didn't understand the Gospel when it was spoken unto them. However, what the Bible talks about is a partial blindness to a body of Jews.. it's not just in Matt 8:4 either. Look at Luke 8:56, Mark 7:36, Mark 9:1-9, Matt 9:30.

Why would Jesus not want to reveal his identity at that point? I would assume that if they found out, they wouldn't have crucified Him.

He did reveal himself through miracles, signs and wonders. There is also no way to say that Christ would not have been sacrificed. He most certainly could have been sacrificed even if the Jewish leadership had receieved Him.
Do you think Rome would have been OK with Christ? What would their response have been?

Jacob's disguise was one of deceipt. Jesus was not a deceiver.

Not if we look at Matt 12:39-40. I'll explain later...

[Gman]

Jacob's disguise was one of deceipt. Jesus was not a deceiver.

That is true, Jesus is not a deceiver.. However I don't think these verses have anything to deceiving but everything to do with not "revealing" all the truth. That is all I'm saying here. The Jews of that generation wanted a sign, and Jesus didn't give it to them Matt 12:39-40.. The only sign they got was His death..

But there are reasons for this folks...

Let's face the music here. Although we have some history in the Talmud or Josephus who talked about Jesus to some degree, other major historians like Philo are silent. It doesn't appear to be an earth shattering event... Anyways, as far as what we can tell from the Talmud, Yeshua or Christ was demon possessed AND from what we can gather from the Gospels, there were only a handful of people, mostly women John 19:25, who were witnesses at His death... No one else really cared... Matthew 26:56.

What am I saying here? It appears that our elder Christian believers did bjork certain truths from the Bible. With the guise of replacement theology added with a little arrogance, we dropped the ball and backed the wrong churches.. Perhaps a little spiritual blindness ourselves.. Paul warned us of this in Romans 11:18.

Now I'm not saying at all here that we start wearing kippahs or start embracing the oral Torah laws such as the Midrash or Talmud or other legalisms which appears to be contrary to Torah Deut 4:2, but that we do turn back to Torah with a Jesus/Jewish heart. I'm finding there is a lot we can observe in the Jewish traditions of the festivals and other such customs, the richness of it all in Christ.. Christ MAGNIFIED..

If we were to observe this spiritual car and look under the hood, it appears that this "new man" in Christ has a Jewish engine but is run on gentile oil or love.. Working together in sync.. To move the world..

[Gman]

I'm just thinking for myself.. We have love, that maybe true, but what does that look like? There appears to be a certain mechanics in love.. Praying, forgiveness, identifying sins, etc..

Or is it just love, love, love no mechanics??

[B. W.]

I'm just thinking for myself.. We have love, that maybe true, but what does that look like? There appears to be a certain mechanics in love.. Praying, forgiveness, identifying sins, etc..

Or is it just love, love, love no mechanics??

Good discussion Gman and Jlay and Bart!

I'll hang low foe a day or so..

[Please note, I was in a slight accident today and have 4 stitches in my lower lip and a sore neck and side (was in the hospital all morning long getting checked out – so I might take a break till late Monday or Tuesday Evening, Lord willing, share a bit more.

All things work together for good for them who love Christ and called to his purposes! Amen!
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[Gman]

Folks..

It has come to my attention that what we have been hitting on here is called Dual-covenant theology. This type of theology believes that Jews can be saved without Christ. It appears to be false with the belief that Jews don't need their own Messiah. The problem here is that Jesus is Messiah of both Jew and Gentile or He is not Messiah at all. Both Jew and Gentile need Him!

Granted, I'm sure that the Jews of the OT times could still become saved via grace..

Anyways, I'm reading a real good book on this called "Your People Shall Be My People" by Don Finto. It's an excellent read that get's into our discussion here..

[Gman]

After much studying and understanding of scripture it has become apparent that God wants us to stand with Israel folks... Throughout the years His people (the Jews) are actually marked targets for destruction... I just received a vision that satan still wants to kill them. For the end times too.. For nearly 2 thousand years there is only a very very small remnant left in Israel. Only 5.5 million. Practically nothing, a literal David vs Goliath story.

Our work is not done here yet. Christ wants us to finish what He started... To literally bond with them. The decision is ours..

It has taken literally 2 thousand years for us to finally understand these scriptures folks. Our Christian elders in many cases dropped the spiritual ball based on fear and a very strong delusion called replacement theology.. They came up with their own fake zion, which turned out, I believe, to be a zion of satan.

Wow..