I caught wind of this thread.
DannyM wrote:Sorry I have taken so long to reply to this post. I wanted to be able to read it properly and free from time-limits at work.
Canuckster1127 wrote:This is off the track a bit, but I've had other very meaningful and I believe genuine deep, overwhelming senses of God's presence in my life in other contexts, including as a pastor when I prepared and preached (not always but often). This will seem ironic, but despite my generally moving away from an institutional model of church participation toward organic fellowship, probably the most meaningful public worship experience I've ever had was in an Episcopal Church during a good Friday service. It was a deeply liturgical service with many elements that I now look upon as based in traditions outside the Bible. Nevertheless, God chose to move through that in a way that still moves me when I recall it. The context of the elements of the service, while certainly important, I see now as not the source of the experience. I see that as a choice made by God in terms of revealing Himself to me. That happens still regardless of the contexts. That doesn't surprise me as much anymore. It makes sense to me. If God is real, the Holy Spirit real and someone who makes His own decisions then I should expect that God will initiate things in my life if I am open to Him. It's pretty presumptuous of me to continue to try to replicate the context of the previous times He's moved in my life. That is saying in effect that the presence of God is made real because of (fill in the blank from the practices we might try to replicate) and that God is manufactured in my life by my efforts alone. That's idolatry.
That helps alot. It helps me to see that, just because something's amiss in a church, this does not necessarily mean everything else must be dismissed. God's presence is then not necessarily negated by some ubiblical practices.
Canuckster hit the nail on the head.
You know, many despise such experiences as nothing. I'd ask, such if they had ever experienced God. Ever felt God ministering to them. You wouldn't say such is just caught up in the moment, if you had truly experienced. And these people, the ones experiencing are I believe experiencing something real, and by that I believe they really are experiencing the presence of God. DannyM, I believe you did experience God.
For whatever reason, God uses and blesses many Christians with such experience even when the theology and message preached is poor. It's the reason why Hillsong is so popular, and why Evangelical Pentecostals are perhaps thriving where Catholicism, Anglicans and the like struggle to retain their congregations. Because, people are perceiving God and experiencing the Holy Spirit. Such ministry isn't one of the head, but of the heart.
Sadly, due to it being all heart, correct teaching is often second place and often lacks. Theology is often incomplete, if theology is even discussed at all -- forsaken for the experience and desire for God. It's the divine high they want, not the teaching. While these Christians aren't as logical or thinking, the one thing that can't be said is that they lack a heart for God and even Christ. Whether talking Misty Edwards, Hillsong or what-have-you.
Wisdom doesn't save, intellect and reason doesn't save, only Christ saves. You know, belief in Christ saves, and Paul says we believe with our hearts (Romans 10:10). God's always desired the heart. Whatever else, follows from that. If you have a heart for Christ, then while correct intellectual understanding is important and provides grounding, nonetheless many such are saved on heart alone.
The bar for reason and intellectual belief is so low, that children are saved. God uses something foolish to confuse the "wise". Who can fully understand the cross? Theologians study Christology and Soteriology their whole lives and still find new insights. The cross is a stumbling block to the wise of the world, and the power of God's love and forgiveness to those "foolish" enough to believe such nonsense.
- 18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written,
“I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor 1:18-25)
How do the foolish know they are saved? In part, I believe experiencing God. A new found perception as Newton sung, "
I once was blind, but now I see." A new found perspective of the world where design is seen, here, there and everywhere such that only God can possibly make sense of it all. And, I dare say, the most foolish of us experience God all the more. Because God is happy to use what isn't perfect, to perfectly demonstrate Himself to us personally. Not to verify or promote this or that false teacher or teachings, but for His own sake in reaching out to the earnest seeker and person who desires God and responds to His call. Consider Christ says we must be like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
For many Christians, Evangelical in nature, this experience is all that is needed. They lack the scientific understanding, they lack the philosophical logic and reasoning, they even lack correct theological teaching, and yet they are Christians
of the heart if you will. Then you have those who are all in their head and feel nothing. Better balanced I see the Christian who is both of the heart and mind, loving God equally with both.
You know, in a way, I see God made it that way from the beginning. Using Peter an uneducated fisherman who Christ merely asked to follow him, and he blindly did so guided by his heart. Another pillar of Christianity, the Apostle Paul who was all logic and reason. Paul was fully acquainted with Jewish Scriptures, understood philosophy and teachings of the day, and reasoned, reasoned and reasoned. He was too smart for his own good, all head, such that nothing short of Christ striking him could penetrate and realign his heart.
Here I see we have two different veins of Christianity if you will. One Apostle all heart, the other Apostle all head. One experienced Christ directly and all his miracles, the other while he evidently had heart also largely used reason and was extremely blessed with wisdom and correct teaching. Such that, the Apostles themselves marveled and conceded Paul himself had full Apostolic authority.
Scripture says though that we are to love God with all our heart, all our mind and with all our soul. Blind and on "cloud 9" is the Christian who is
all heart, how stiff and stagnant is the Christian who is
all head, but blessed is the Christian who has more balance possessing both rational grounding and heart. All however are under Christ, and lead by the Holy Spirit according to God's will.
