Evidence for God from Science

Another thing which is bothering me: I"ve been thinking what is the soul made of? If not of things we know, which feel electromagnetic or weak or strong or gravitational force, than I ask what keeps the soul within our bodies. If of that things, than I ask if the soul can be somehow detected. (Sorry if that is the stupid question.)

The first time I have not got an answer the same day.

That happens - some of us have jobs that take up way too much time

In our world, the soul is both body and spirit, brain and mind. Just like no two people have the same genotype, no two people have the same soul. The soul is the distinctive capacity of each human to commit altruistic acts and acts of love. We are not just living to survive and reproduce. We are constantly searching for a higher meaning; this is our soul's influence.

The soul is not a material goverened by the laws of our universe, it is a consciousness.

In my opinion, when our bodies die the part of our soul foreign to this universe continues and exists in an alternate universe more aptly suited to the 'material' that it is made of. I don't really know what this means.

As far as detection goes, I think beings who occupy both universes are able to identify us by our spirits and maybe earthly creatures highly connected to the alternate realm. Under these terms it is a higher state of awareness that yields detection through becoming closer to God or becoming closer to the devil.

luke-10 wrote: The soul is not a material goverened by the laws of our universe, it is a consciousness.

So, the soul maybe be influenced by psycho-drugs?

Hi all,

I copied a piece of our dalog to my older friend and I think it is interesting to put his reaction here. (Our statements are in quotes his ones are in simple words.)

1.

I am thinking about what such an atheist should do. Should he say: "Well God, I do not know if you exist, but rather I'm going to believe in you, since the atheism wouldn't be a partucularly good choice if you exist." Is this fair to God? Or another question: Isn't this insane? (no offence here, just contemplating)

If the atheist decides to "believe" as described, well, the truth is, he doesn't. That is not belief. It may be polite, perhaps as wise as buying insurance against a probable disaster in the future. But it's not belief of a saving kind (and God would be able to tell). It's not even a belief that would satisfy the so-called believer himself. It's doomed from the outset.

2.

Well, the argument itself is a rewording of Pascal's wager, and no, it isn't insane, it is pretty logical. I might not have been clear so I'll try to clarify: Suppose God exists and the atheist doesn't know about Him: The atheist should spend all his time -trying- to know Him! Suppose God exists and the atheist doesn't want to know about Him: That seems 'insane', as you put. This is the scenario I was talking about. There is a subliminal acknowledgement that the atheist already has some inclination that God exists in this scenario (or at least could), but they don't want anything to do with Him.

Of course, if God exists and we do nothing to know him, we are "foolish" in the extreme (better than "insane"). If we supress the knowledge of God as he reveals himself in favor of a God of our own minds preferences, we are foolish again. If God cannot be known apart from his enabling us to believe, then if he's a good God, there is a reason for this that does not "incriminate" him (and there is such a reason for this).

3.

Do you think that God accepts a person who is going to believe just because of the wager? Would God be pleased by that? Shouldn't people come to God from other reasons?

You are correct in your position. Consider this from a human angle. Would "any reason" be good enough for you to allow a man to be your partner in life? He needs a warm bed-so good enough. He gets hungry, I cook: good enough. He makes me feel better-good enough. I think that we want to be loved for who we are. God reveals so much about himself in creation (both concretely and visually, conceptually in math, laws of physics, etc.) that we have plenty of reasons to be attracted to him. But if he sends his one and only Son to die so we can be freely forgiven when we do come to him, and be both forgiven and deeply and eternally loved--THAT is the reason for believing. But even these "reasons" cannot be enough. We need faith. For I cannot "see" God, and faith unlocks the mysteries of our minds and hearts and frees us to believe what we've known all along, but lacked the faith.

4.

Well, what makes one 'reason' better than another 'reason'? Does it matter to the government why I pay my taxes as long as I do? Probably not.

It is written, "the devils believe and tremble". They nevertheless are not saved. Why? They do not have faith that is mingled with love and gratitude. They KNOW he exists as surely as Devils exist. But I come to God not merely to know (but I do also want to know) but mainly because I've come to have a hole in my heart: a deep-seated need to know acceptance and love (not a mighty deity). He draws my heart because of his meeting me where I am. He's patient and kind as I probe, seemingly in the dark. He offers light (but I often refuse it). He surrounds me with evidences (I tend to rationalize them into uselessness). But he keeps on coming, and I keep feeling that hole. But he insists upon offering me solutions to my inner-needs that satisfy my heart. Well, I am drawn to such a one as this. So, when he opens my eyes I see myself as the stubborn sinner I really am (for my good). But he also shows me Christ and his cross-work, thus he forgives me in that same Christ.

5.

Yes and No, really depends on whether it is about admitting that someone exists beyond our natural and scientific realms. God accepts a person in faith, doesn't matter if the faith was born of a logical conclusion or rational wager or by reading John 3:16. what matters is that one should not be cheating his own self into faith. Faith comes by hope, hope that exists because of a choice, the choice can be born out of any set of events or circumstances. The choice is only, you believe or you don't. There is no formula involved. It doesn't matter by what reason you come to God, either you believe or you don't, however if you come, just come in faith. On a side note, try trusting God (even if it makes you feel embarrassed or illogical, try it), if he is out there and you wanna really know about him, you'll probably cross paths, at least I hope so.

Respectfully, I would suggest that they see that faith is a gift from God. He gives it to whomever he will. But what that looks like is different in each individual case. Some find him by reason, some find him by logic. Some find him in conflict. But rest assured: no one who honestly seeks him will lack finding him. But God is God, he defines our needs and he identifies our barriers to knowing him (and he does in the bible) as well as the only means that bring us to himself (his sovereign grace) that comes to us even when we are not seeking him, or seeking him in hopeless ways.

1over137 wrote:

luke-10 wrote: The soul is not a material goverened by the laws of our universe, it is a consciousness.

So, the soul maybe be influenced by psycho-drugs?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'influened'? Accepting that our soul is both body and mind, it follows that what we do to our body effects our soul.

1over137 wrote:Hi all,

I copied a piece of our dalog to my older friend and I think it is interesting to put his reaction here. (Our statements are in quotes his ones are in simple words.)

1.

I am thinking about what such an atheist should do. Should he say: "Well God, I do not know if you exist, but rather I'm going to believe in you, since the atheism wouldn't be a partucularly good choice if you exist." Is this fair to God? Or another question: Isn't this insane? (no offence here, just contemplating)

If the atheist decides to "believe" as described, well, the truth is, he doesn't. That is not belief. It may be polite, perhaps as wise as buying insurance against a probable disaster in the future. But it's not belief of a saving kind (and God would be able to tell). It's not even a belief that would satisfy the so-called believer himself. It's doomed from the outset.

2.

Well, the argument itself is a rewording of Pascal's wager, and no, it isn't insane, it is pretty logical. I might not have been clear so I'll try to clarify: Suppose God exists and the atheist doesn't know about Him: The atheist should spend all his time -trying- to know Him! Suppose God exists and the atheist doesn't want to know about Him: That seems 'insane', as you put. This is the scenario I was talking about. There is a subliminal acknowledgement that the atheist already has some inclination that God exists in this scenario (or at least could), but they don't want anything to do with Him.

Of course, if God exists and we do nothing to know him, we are "foolish" in the extreme (better than "insane"). If we supress the knowledge of God as he reveals himself in favor of a God of our own minds preferences, we are foolish again. If God cannot be known apart from his enabling us to believe, then if he's a good God, there is a reason for this that does not "incriminate" him (and there is such a reason for this).

3.

Do you think that God accepts a person who is going to believe just because of the wager? Would God be pleased by that? Shouldn't people come to God from other reasons?

You are correct in your position. Consider this from a human angle. Would "any reason" be good enough for you to allow a man to be your partner in life? He needs a warm bed-so good enough. He gets hungry, I cook: good enough. He makes me feel better-good enough. I think that we want to be loved for who we are. God reveals so much about himself in creation (both concretely and visually, conceptually in math, laws of physics, etc.) that we have plenty of reasons to be attracted to him. But if he sends his one and only Son to die so we can be freely forgiven when we do come to him, and be both forgiven and deeply and eternally loved--THAT is the reason for believing. But even these "reasons" cannot be enough. We need faith. For I cannot "see" God, and faith unlocks the mysteries of our minds and hearts and frees us to believe what we've known all along, but lacked the faith.

4.

Well, what makes one 'reason' better than another 'reason'? Does it matter to the government why I pay my taxes as long as I do? Probably not.

It is written, "the devils believe and tremble". They nevertheless are not saved. Why? They do not have faith that is mingled with love and gratitude. They KNOW he exists as surely as Devils exist. But I come to God not merely to know (but I do also want to know) but mainly because I've come to have a hole in my heart: a deep-seated need to know acceptance and love (not a mighty deity). He draws my heart because of his meeting me where I am. He's patient and kind as I probe, seemingly in the dark. He offers light (but I often refuse it). He surrounds me with evidences (I tend to rationalize them into uselessness). But he keeps on coming, and I keep feeling that hole. But he insists upon offering me solutions to my inner-needs that satisfy my heart. Well, I am drawn to such a one as this. So, when he opens my eyes I see myself as the stubborn sinner I really am (for my good). But he also shows me Christ and his cross-work, thus he forgives me in that same Christ.

5.

Yes and No, really depends on whether it is about admitting that someone exists beyond our natural and scientific realms. God accepts a person in faith, doesn't matter if the faith was born of a logical conclusion or rational wager or by reading John 3:16. what matters is that one should not be cheating his own self into faith. Faith comes by hope, hope that exists because of a choice, the choice can be born out of any set of events or circumstances. The choice is only, you believe or you don't. There is no formula involved. It doesn't matter by what reason you come to God, either you believe or you don't, however if you come, just come in faith. On a side note, try trusting God (even if it makes you feel embarrassed or illogical, try it), if he is out there and you wanna really know about him, you'll probably cross paths, at least I hope so.

Respectfully, I would suggest that they see that faith is a gift from God. He gives it to whomever he will. But what that looks like is different in each individual case. Some find him by reason, some find him by logic. Some find him in conflict. But rest assured: no one who honestly seeks him will lack finding him. But God is God, he defines our needs and he identifies our barriers to knowing him (and he does in the bible) as well as the only means that bring us to himself (his sovereign grace) that comes to us even when we are not seeking him, or seeking him in hopeless ways.

Thanks for sharing. I liked reading what he had to say.

luke-10 wrote:

1over137 wrote:

luke-10 wrote: The soul is not a material goverened by the laws of our universe, it is a consciousness.

So, the soul maybe be influenced by psycho-drugs?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'influened'? Accepting that our soul is both body and mind, it follows that what we do to our body effects our soul.

By influenced I mean that person can do things he wouldn't do otherwise.
I wonder whether our soul is both body and mind, since The Old Testament contains the statement "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
For some Christians the soul is synonym for mind.

Anger.

1over137 wrote:Anger.

An honest answer!

What is the reason for this anger?
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The reason for an anger? (generally speaking) I can think of 2 things:
1. misunderstanding
2. people calling themselves Christians but are bad examples.

1over137 wrote:The reason for an anger? (generally speaking) I can think of 2 things:
1. misunderstanding
2. people calling themselves Christians but are bad examples.

I respect your honesty. It is rare for atheist to be so honest and I commend you for this. If you like, would you like to explore these a bit more? I do not want to intrude further into your reasoning’s unless you are willing to explore. In so doing I ask others that may comment to be respectful regarding comments.

If you like to begin:

1-Could you please define what you mean personally by misunderstanding?

2-Your second point is valid; however, please don’t paint with a broad brush all Christians in this category.

I do not lump all atheist in one lump either. There are the militant ones, moderate ones, ones the bounce between agnosticism and atheism. There are indifferent ones and highly intellectually indifferent atheist. There are atheist who defend the practice of religion, etc.. all differing types of people that make up the atheists camp. not good to paint with a broad brush any group of people as being a typical streotype.
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B. W. wrote: I respect your honesty. It is rare for atheist to be so honest and I commend you for this.

I am not an atheist anymore. (I was bigger part of my life). But I know of some people from my surroundings which are honest and are atheists. (And I know of some very nice theoretical physicists.)

B. W. wrote: If you like, would you like to explore these a bit more?

Sure. I was actually in process of writing some examples when I realized that they could be traced down to that 2 things I mentioned. Here is what I have already written:

1. We all know about the black past of the Christianity. Killing Giordano Bruno and others, slowing down the development of science. But well, probably that Christians were not really Christians. (I am now thinking about whether there were popes who were not worth naming themselves Christians.)

2. Atheists further may get angry when they see Christians not thinking about things, closeminded. And well, they may get angry when they see 'leaders' manipulating people. (Personally, what I do do not like is dishonesty.)

3. Then, for example, I can imagine a guy falling in love with a girl who is a Christian, but he cannot be with the girl because of Christian principles.

4. Another thing: I already mentioned my farther in this thread and then was talking about dissapointment. Well, he could as well be angry.

B. W. wrote: I do not want to intrude further into your reasoning’s unless you are willing to explore.

I came to this forum to explore.

B. W. wrote: 1-Could you please define what you mean personally by misunderstanding?

See my third and fourth example.

B. W. wrote: 2-Your second point is valid; however, please don’t paint with a broad brush all Christians in this category.

I am not doing that. If I was I would be an atheist forever (probably). Actually, I am looking for the best of the Christians and to speak with him/her.

B. W. wrote: I do not lump all atheist in one lump either. There are the militant ones, moderate ones, ones the bounce between agnosticism and atheism. There are indifferent ones and highly intellectually indifferent atheist. There are atheist who defend the practice of religion, etc.. all differing types of people that make up the atheists camp. not good to paint with a broad brush any group of people as being a typical streotype.

This I think refer to any group of people. E.g. there are believieng theoretical physicists, non-believing, undecided, agnostics.

To end my post: One of my atheist friends consider my being on this forum wasting of time.

1over137 wrote: I am not an atheist anymore. (I was bigger part of my life). But I know of some people from my surroundings which are honest and are atheists. (And I know of some very nice theoretical physicists.)

... I was actually in process of writing some examples when I realized that they could be traced down to that 2 things I mentioned. Here is what I have already written:

1. We all know about the black past of the Christianity. Killing Giordano Bruno and others, slowing down the development of science. But well, probably that Christians were not really Christians. (I am now thinking about whether there were popes who were not worth naming themselves Christians.)

2. Atheists further may get angry when they see Christians not thinking about things, closeminded. And well, they may get angry when they see 'leaders' manipulating people. (Personally, what I do do not like is dishonesty.)

3. Then, for example, I can imagine a guy falling in love with a girl who is a Christian, but he cannot be with the girl because of Christian principles.

4. Another thing: I already mentioned my farther in this thread and then was talking about dissapointment. Well, he could as well be angry.

B. W. wrote: 1-Could you please define what you mean personally by misunderstanding?

See my third and fourth example...

My apologies 1over137 – I thought you were an atheist, my mistake. Both of us are ex-atheist!

Looking over your points let's further look into these a bit more as they do sum up atheist positional belief systems rather well:

2. Atheists further may get angry when they see Christians not thinking about things, close-minded. And well, they may get angry when they see 'leaders' manipulating people. (Personally, what I do do not like is dishonesty.)

Atheists usually are mirroring themselves. They tout open-mindedness but are close minded toward God - how can that really be open minded? They also fail to see that even the bible mentions false brethren and leaders:

2 Peter 2:1, 2, 3 - "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not." KJV

Gal 2:4 - "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage..." NKJV

1 Timothy 4:1, 2 - "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron..." KJV

They fail to see how the unseen living hand of correction exposes with truth such people openly – the very ones atheist often refer too. I did when I as an atheist. No other religion in the world has that living un-seen hand correcting things as does Christianity, exposing and reforming error revealed by stark naked truth.

So there is a misunderstanding they have about God fore they deny that there is any unseen hand at work working truth. Yet, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism has not undergone any reformation since conception. Especially Islam as it will never be able to self correct in accordance to truth.

3. Then, for example, I can imagine a guy falling in love with a girl who is a Christian, but he cannot be with the girl because of Christian principles.

Not true. People marry cross lines all the time, sometimes for worse or sometimes for betterment when spouse turns to the Lord. Biblically based Christianity advises and seeks through persuading – leaving the choice to the individual to make. In Islamic practices, they’ll justify killing a person for this. In Christianity, we cannot stop a person from making any kind of mistake whatever it is. We understand that thru God’s Grace, they must learn from the Lord and after they learned in that omni-personal way God provides, they’ll return to the Lord.

So it appears to me that atheist fail to understand Grace, how it works, due to the outward works of misguided Christian people and how God omni-personally corrects misguided Christian people.

4. Another thing: I already mentioned my farther in this thread and then was talking about disappointment. Well, he could as well be angry.

Disappointment is a biggie…

This comes in some many various ways and comes from how people act, unfulfilled miracles/healings, tragedy, etc…

My opinion on this is that people are not taught what the Christian experience is or how it is to work. In America it is often Marketed and packaged – promoted a certain way that fuels a person's future disappointment. Again, it shows that indwelling sin nature still at work within the human heart setting up noble idols in the heart that replace a genuine encounter with the living God with bells and whistles as the principle from the passage quoted below indicates:

Ezekiel 14:3, "Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and put before them that which causes them to stumble into iniquity. Should I let Myself be inquired of at all by them? NKJV

These need to be addressed... with truth, honesty, gentleness...
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