Evidence for God from Science

DannyM wrote:Your salvation is all the work of Christ, and 'changing one's mind' would be a work of yours and not Christ.

I had meant to say

Your salvation is all the work of Christ, "turning away from" would be a work of yours and not Christ.

That does clarify a bit. Thanks.

To respond then, I think that it is a necessary correlation to turning to Christ that you turn from something else. What I mean isn't that you suddenly become an über-man and rise above all sin. It's more like this:

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(Numbers)
The Bronze Snake
4 They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea,[c] to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; 5 they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!”

6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.

8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

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Christ, taking on the world's sin, is represented here by the snake. All people had to do was turn to Him, but in doing so, they had to turn away from everything else (as a necessity for looking at something in particular). This is what I'm referring to by repentance. I think our definitions are extremely close, though I can appreciate so much debate about small differences on such a crucial issue.

Danny. First of all I apologize because in organizing my last post I put something out of order. You said,

Like I said, repentance goes hand in hand with your faith in Christ.

And I agree. The quote I meant to put there was,

You do not 'change your mind' when you trust Christ..... and 'changing one's mind' would be a work of yours and not Christ.

I think if you read it in this context it will make more sense. I will correct.

DannyM wrote:I really don’t see your problem. Trusting in Christ is not a work. Repentance is not a work. If repentance had been condition for one’s salvation then repentance is still not a work.

I agree. Faith, and repentance are not works. But that is not what you said. You said, "and 'changing one's mind' would be a work of yours and not Christ." That would seem to contradict. the other.

Sorry, J, that doesn’t fly. My faith entails a repentance. You do not 'change your mind' when you trust Christ. Repentance comes after and with my faith. This faith is distinct from the saving faith given to me by Christ.

You've confused me here.

Yes I agree and this is why I say repentance is synonymous with our faith.

I don't have any problem with that.

Where am I told to repent in order to be saved?

Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19)
“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. ” (Luke 13:5)

I had meant to say

Your salvation is all the work of Christ, "turning away from" would be a work of yours and not Christ.

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Gotcha.

Jlay

I had meant to say “turning away from” would be a work not of Christ but ourselves. I corrected myself somewhere above.

I agree with you on the relationship between one’s faith/repentance. But while somewhat intrinsically linked, we cannot say that repentance is a stipulated requirement for our salvation.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” John 3:16

Sure belief can entail repentance, but where do we get such belief in the first place?

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.” Ephesians 2:1-2

“All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.” Ephesians 2:3-5

“And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:6-8

We are nothing until the Holy Spirit works in us. A change of mind cannot come when we are depraved, and it is by grace that we are picked up out of our own transgressions. I’m saying a change of mind cannot come from ourselves, whether it be for salvation or not, since it is Christ who works in us before we can 'do' or 'change' anything.

Looks like you are taking a determined Calvinist view on this. We've beat that horse to death.

I love Ephesians. It is my favorite book in the bible. But not sure how the verses you quote convey anything unless you start with a determined Calvanist view, which I do not, nor do I think is required. This would only mean that faith is imparted or implanted, not a cooperative response to the truth. If it is imparted, then apologetics, contending, etc. are meaningless, as God will impart faith to whoever. And blind the rest from any hope.

jlay wrote:Looks like you are taking a determined Calvinist view on this. We've beat that horse to death.

I don’t know if it is Calvinism or not. Ephesians really talks to me, in that I identify with such unmerited, unadulterated grace.

I love Ephesians. It is my favorite book in the bible. But not sure how the verses you quote convey anything unless you start with a determined Calvanist view, which I do not, nor do I think is required. This would only mean that faith is imparted or implanted, not a cooperative response to the truth. If it is imparted, then apologetics, contending, etc. are meaningless, as God will impart faith to whoever. And blind the rest from any hope.

You love Ephesians but you don’t see how those verses convey anything? How does an imparted faith entail a non-cooperative response? And I think you’re jumping from A to B a bit hastily. J, Apologetics is not meaningless with an imparted faith. It is you saying God will impart faith to “whoever”, as if God puts on a blindfold and just plays ‘you are not it’. I don’t really see an infringement on a limited free will we both endorse.

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:

Where am I told to repent in order to be saved?

Luke 13:3
Matthew 4:17
Mark 1:15

And these apply to me, for my salvation?

Of course, Danny. I thought that this whole thread was about taking verses out of context. I figured I'd just pick a few random verses, quote them out of context, and that would prove my point. Did I win?

If you are accusing me of taking koran verses out of context think of this first.

1) The koran says to kill ALL christians, jews,_____ add religon here. The bible, when god orders death, it is to a confined area for a small period of time, not all time.

2) When god orders death to jerico, it is to 1) punish jericho for it's despicable religous practices (see religon of jericho, and their "moon god". 2) to stop any future intermarriage and religon with the pagans at jericho.

3) The koran uses killing as a threat to convert (see first post verses), the bible orders death not to those who do not convert, but to those who are deemed "wicked by god" so we must take god at his word on that.

Skimming through some topics here, there is just one thing I'd like to note. If a lying, cheating, stealing, murdering man professed faith in Christ, and then continued to behave the same way, he has not really come to Christ. "Good works", or any moral code, comes from faith in Christ, and an absolute disregard for such is denial of Christ. This doesn't mean that you need to be moral to get into heaven, but it means that in order to accept Christ you need to truly love Him and understand Him. We are all, after all, sinners, but in the face of God, any sins regardless of magnitude will still distance us from him. So yes, a murdering lunatic can go to heaven, but after accepting Christ he would change his ways if he truly had accepted Him, because the Holy Spirit would work in him.

If you are accusing me of taking koran verses out of context think of this first.

My comment wasn't directed towards you, Murray.

You love Ephesians but you don’t see how those verses convey anything?

Come on now Danny, let's not do that. Ephesians conveys a lot. It is pretty obvious I am talking about the context regarding why you quoted said verses in the first place. I would assume since you quoted those verses that you were representing them as a defense of your position, regarding repentance.

A change of mind cannot come when we are depraved,

This implies that repentance is not a response involving the cooperative mind of man, but something implanted by God. If true, why would God COMMAND all men everywhere to repent? Why would God COMMAND people to do something they can not do? And the same goes for faith. Danny, it is most certainly a determined Calvinist view. Which is fine. I just don't hold that view myself. And that being the case, we may agree on the definition of the word, but will likely not agree about the nature of how it is applied.

kmr wrote:Skimming through some topics here, there is just one thing I'd like to note. If a lying, cheating, stealing, murdering man professed faith in Christ, and then continued to behave the same way, he has not really come to Christ. "Good works", or any moral code, comes from faith in Christ, and an absolute disregard for such is denial of Christ. This doesn't mean that you need to be moral to get into heaven, but it means that in order to accept Christ you need to truly love Him and understand Him. We are all, after all, sinners, but in the face of God, any sins regardless of magnitude will still distance us from him. So yes, a murdering lunatic can go to heaven, but after accepting Christ he would change his ways if he truly had accepted Him, because the Holy Spirit would work in him.

I wish more atheist could understand this

RickD wrote:

quote]

My comment wasn't directed towards you, Murray.

O okay

jlay wrote:

You love Ephesians but you don’t see how those verses convey anything?

Come on now Danny, let's not do that. Ephesians conveys a lot. It is pretty obvious I am talking about the context regarding why you quoted said verses in the first place. I would assume since you quoted those verses that you were representing them as a defense of your position, regarding repentance.

J, I was responding to this

But not sure how the verses you quote convey anything unless you start with a determined Calvinist view

I want to say that repentance can only come once God has worked in us. Whether my view is Calvinist or not should not negate the point. If I’m wrong it’s because I’m wrong and not because I’m ‘Calvinist.’ I don’t know every piece of Calvinism so could not with true conscience call myself Calvinist. From what I do know of Calvinism I’d say it seems to be thoroughly biblical, and most objections I see appear to be objections of distaste, rather than biblical objections.

A change of mind cannot come when we are depraved,

jlay wrote:This implies that repentance is not a response involving the cooperative mind of man, but something implanted by God. If true, why would God COMMAND all men everywhere to repent? Why would God COMMAND people to do something they can not do? And the same goes for faith. Danny, it is most certainly a determined Calvinist view. Which is fine. I just don't hold that view myself. And that being the case, we may agree on the definition of the word, but will likely not agree about the nature of how it is applied.

J, if you’ll indulge me I’m working on a post which wants to address the relationship between a graceful, saving faith and a faith which springs forth at salvation. It’ll probably be called Two kinds of Faith. But please bear with me as I try to work this out. Might take a few days

Danny, I wasn't unclear on what you were responding to. If you notice, my comments specified, "the determined Calvanists view." I should have been more specific in saying, that this doesn't convey anything regarding what we were discussing regarding repentance, unless the determined Calvinist view is presupposed.

I want to say that repentance can only come once God has worked in us. Whether my view is Calvinist or not should not negate the point.

Of course, but I would like to know what you specifically mean by "God has worked in us." My initial impression is that you are saying that salvation has already occurred. If this is not the case then please let me know.

To clarify, based on my best understanding of the word, there is a repentance (mind shift) that occurs before and in keeping with belief. However, repentance must be understood in its context, and we need to be careful not to apply a meaning to the word which it doesn't carry in and of itself and in all usage. The word repent in certain context may mean something else. And I think that is why there is a lot of confusion over the usage of the word. When I say repentance occurs before salvation, I am not saying that there aren't areas where a believer will repent post salvation. I am certainly not saying a believer can come to God without God working. God has already worked. When the Son of Man is lifted up he will draw ALL men. The cross isn't merely an event in history, but a resonating reality of today that still draws men.

But we have several examples where repentance is preached by Jesus, JTB, and Peter, where in the context we would have to see that the audience receiving the message would understand, and I don't think it works in the way you are presenting. (Especially in Ephesians, since the word repent is not used by Paul.) Yours would seem to comply with 2 Tim 2:25. And thus may be a contextual issue we are dealing with here.

Mark 6:12, Luke 3:8, Acts 3:19, Matt. 21:32 These and others seem to support mine.

Calvinism is thoroughly biblical in many areas. As is Armenianism and dispensationalism. That doesn't mean that each doesn't have flaws, some even perhaps critical.

To anybody out there who is confused about this topic, going to heaven, I need to remind you that this is THE core tenet of Christianity. An insane killing maniac of moral horror can go to heaven. That, in itself is absolutely insane! Why would a sinless God allow any sinner to join Him in heaven? It is because of His love! God loves us so much that he sent is only begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him shall not perish, but shall obtain eternal life. We have all sinned so much that none of us should be granted access to heaven, but God is willing to let even the lowliest wretch in! It isn't a matter of how good or bad the person is, it is a matter of accepting Christ, who already paid the admission price. All we need to do is accept the ticket. How can this be, when we all are such sinners? It is because, by accepting Christ, we are allowing God to transform us into sinless creatures and washing all of our sins. Nothing that we can do will accomplish this. If it were up to me, I'd call God crazy for doing this favor for any ONE person, but BILLIONS of little monsters? You've got to be kidding me. I love my Lord!