Arrogant atheist

[jlay]

IMO, it is futile to put up statistics comparing the evils of religion to the evils of secular humanism/atheism.
Immoral acts do not prove that one philosophy is right or wrong. They do both however prove that man is utterly corrupt. Man will hi-jack politics, religion and any other medium to further his own selfish agenda. This also reveals something else. We can see that such things are in violation of an objective moral standard.

Example: Hitler took this idea and corrupted it for his own evil agenda. In fact, Hitler manipulated every possible area to use as propaganda, even the church itself. Hitler even had his own Bible written to reflect his twisted ideas. We also see more common violations of nationalism when soccer fans will attack referees or opposing fans with extreme violance. There is nothing wrong with one being loyal to their nation. But man can certainly twist this for his own desire. So, is nationalism evil? No, man is evil.

If the Christian puts up such statistics, they are only getting into a pissing match. Plus, in a sense, without really meaning to, they are conceding that religion is only less evil than atheism. If the atheist puts up stats, then they are saying that religion is evil. However, to do so they have to admit evil. And if evil exist, then they are also conceding an objective standard of right and wrong that has been violated. This also presumes inherent value in human life. Anyone who follows secular humanism or materialism to its logical ends can only claim life's inherent value if they are deluded. Since the Atheist denies God, they cannot really blame religion. They have to blame man. If there is no God, then religion is just a result of society. Blaming religious people is a contradiction. This leads to three alternatives.
1) A creator exist, and he is the author of evil.
2) A creator exist, but is not attached or involved in his creation. Therefore man is responsible for evil
3) There is no God, and therefore man is responsible for evil. But, evil is arbitrary sense there is no moral law giver.

There is a 4th option. There is a God, He is a moral law giver, yet man is still responsible his acts of evil. This one complies with Judeo-Christianity.
Truly following atheism, there is no more value in being religious or atheist. We are all deluded in a sense. The atheist says it is important to be "RIGHT" about atheism, yet has to smuggle in objective truth to do so. If atheism is true, then religion is just a natural by-product. if it's natural then it is neither good or bad. It just is. The religious person may be deluded. However, the atheist is also deluded because they think it is "RIGHT" to be right. They are saying truth has inherent value. Yet, a material universe is not interested in truth, nor has any basis for it. Man killing man, would be no more immoral than bacteria killing bacteria.

Question: If there is no God, then who is to blame for all of these atrocities? Man. You can't blame religion, because religion would only be an ideology of man. No different than political, social, etc. Therefore, the conclusion is that man, left to his own devices, will do such things. It's natural. If it's natural then it isn't 'evil.' The word evil carries within it the idea that a universal standard of good has been violated. Without a moral law giver, right and wrong, good and evil, are just arbitrary terms. "Morals" are no more significant biologically than an elephant fart. It is just a delusion of being self-aware. A cruel trick of nature. One could make just as good a case for resisting morality as submitting to it. "Might is right," would have as much inherent moral quality as, "do unto others."

In the case of these atrocities we have to look back at the core tenets to see if the perpetrators are acting consistently with their ideology. If one reads the new testament they will quickly see that genocide or war to advance a cause are in direct contradiction with the teachings. So, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and Papal abuse are instantly in trouble. If one studies Mein Kampf, they will no doubt see the atrocities of Nazi fascism as a consistent outcome of following that ideology.

If it wasn't for OM how could humanity have corrected course? If morality is subject to change based on the preferences of society, then how could man see that Nazi Fascism was a moral violation and then work to right a wrong? One who rejects OM has to admit, there is nothing inherently wrong with killing people because they are Jewish. To use the terms progress, better, right, wrong, good or evil is to contradict. Many will deny OM, all the while smuggling it in. Unless one is a soicopath, they will always live as if OM is a reality. Sadly, they deny it, because they know, they know, they know, that OM is a giant finger pointing to a moral law giver. And the thought of their own thoughts, words and actions being in violation of an objective standard is simply unacceptable. And so, people will knowingly, consciously, live in contradiction. People aren't condemned because they won't join the right team. They are condemend because they are enemies of truth. Why would someone who lives in contradiction and an enemy of truth, want to spend eternity with the Truth source? And so, they will spend it with themselves in eternal contradiction. If a person is a law unto themselves, then under such they will be judged. But we all know, through our conscience that somethings are good and others evil. We know it is wrong, objectively wrong to torture puppies for fun. We know that a person who derives pleasure from such, is evil. It is not an issue of chocolate or vanilla.

[Reactionary]

Yours (and stu) was the other point of view!!!

Nice try.

I have much more appreciation for people who stick to their values consistently, rather than change them as new fads come and go.

In that case, i believe the world is flat and is still the centre of the universe!

Read what Jlay just wrote. The man knows what he's talking (writing) about. And he's obviously more patient than I am.

[Stu]

Reactionary wrote:
What war? Religion doesn't even count among the most frequent causes of war. Do some research.
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/wa ... igion.html
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

Stu wrote:
Turns out that these days you're labelled as some crazy fundamentalist if you have beliefs and values, which you hold on to consistently.
Some stats I picked up on my travels..

4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan’s Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey’s Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland’s Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito’s Slaughterhouse
15. 1,663,000 Murdered? Orwellian North Korea
16. 1,417,000 Murdered? Barbarous Mexico

Reactionary and Stu- you should have done some research from BOTH points of view....TYPICAL.

In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
Oftentimes, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.



I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.

Dan wrote:
I could be wrong, anyone can be wrong but do I believe I am wrong? Absolutely not, with every fibre of my being I know God exists. I feel and see his presence in my life everyday and no one will ever convince me otherwise, I stand by my convictions even though I may be wrong.

Dan - thank you for your response.

Two things.

- You miss quoted me. I never said: "Turns out that these days you're labelled as some crazy fundamentalist if you have beliefs and values, which you hold on to consistently."

- Secondly, I just listed the stats, I wasn't making a specific statement surrounding their significance, as you seem to allude to....

But if I were to, it would be this.

As has been said elsewhere in this thread, holding up the death stats of atheists vs theists is pointless. I guess the main point I was making is that atheists are the ones who consistently point to the amount of deaths under religious rule. I was simply returning the favour

And what is the result... one heck of an ugly picture under atheistic rule.

The only thing you will achieve by comparing "death counts" is showing just how cruel human beings can be.

[Reactionary]

- You miss quoted me. I never said: "Turns out that these days you're labelled as some crazy fundamentalist if you have beliefs and values, which you hold on to consistently."

I said that. Our colleague must have mistaken us for one another. Maybe you should get an avatar.

[Stu]

I said that. Our colleague must have mistaken us for one another. Maybe you should get an avatar.

Done!

[Reactionary]

I said that. Our colleague must have mistaken us for one another. Maybe you should get an avatar.

Done!

Cool!

[MarcusOfLycia]

Reactionary and Stu- you should have done some research from BOTH points of view....TYPICAL.

In that case, why don't you show us the other point of view?

In short, 809 million people have died in religious wars. That’s nearly a billion people.
Oftentimes, a retort is that secular ideals and Godless Communism have killed many more. It is true that Stalin, among others, slaughtered his own people by the millions during the industrialization of Soviet Russia. By comparison, 209 million have died in the name of Communism. Some 62 million died during World War II, civilian and military, on all sides. Conclusively, more people have died in the name of religion than in the name of Communism or Hitler, or the two combined times two.

What evidence do you have to back up that statement?

I simply asked a question- could you be wrong about God? And this is the typical response i get.

Oh please, enough with the typical talk already. You must have repeated the word "typical" for at least five times. Yes, there is a possibility that I could be wrong about God - maybe 1% if we talk about probabilities. I'm young and I haven't yet researched everything there is about Christianity, that's why I'm not absolutely certain yet. But what does that have to do with anything? I have much more appreciation for people who stick to their values consistently, rather than change them as new fads come and go.

Hitler actually killed 809 million people. See. I can make up statistics too.

Yours (and stu) was the other point of view!!!

Reactionary:
I have much more appreciation for people who stick to their values consistently, rather than change them as new fads come and go.

In that case, i believe the world is flat and is still the centre of the universe![/quote]