Free will and Omniscience

[DannyM]

If God is constrained it is because He is constrained by Himself and His own nature.

J, isn't it the case that, because of the fall, and man's subsequent sinful nature, absolute free will has to be a myth?

[CeT-To]

Right. Plus, can God do things which He did not know He was going to do?

I don't think so though he does know what would happen if he did this or that occurred - he has the " what would happen if .." knowledge too.

Crazy huh which means we were predestined to be with Him for eternity - since since God has been alive.

[CeT-To]

If God is constrained it is because He is constrained by Himself and His own nature.

J, isn't it the case that, because of the fall, and man's subsequent sinful nature, absolute free will has to be a myth?

Yeah... i'm not so sure about absolute free will either. Though one wonders what the essence of the sinful nature is..

[DannyM]

Yeah... i'm not so sure about absolute free will either. Though one wonders what the essence of the sinful nature is..

It's man's inherent need to act on all his desires.

[Byblos]

If God is constrained it is because He is constrained by Himself and His own nature.

J, isn't it the case that, because of the fall, and man's subsequent sinful nature, absolute free will has to be a myth?

Like I said before, there really are 3 choices:

1. No free will / predestination (Calvinism, elcet vs. reprobate)
2. Free will, independent of anything else (Pelagianism, elect one's self)
3. God's grace and man's free will are 2 sides of the same coin and act in tandem (IMO the position that most closely aligns with scripture).

And by the way, not to change the subject or anything but where you fall in this 3-pronged spectrum has implications on belief in secured salvation.

[DannyM]

Right. Plus, can God do things which He did not know He was going to do?

I don't think so though he does know what would happen if he did this or that occurred - he has the " what would happen if .." knowledge too.

Crazy huh which means we were predestined to be with Him for eternity - since since God has been alive.

Well, in the sense of What would happen if John in Hounslow had not been run over by the car on Tuesday and died - he would not be dead. We can all know this.

But define what you mean please, Bro.

*edit* not happy with those thoughts. God has knowledge of all possible worlds.

[DannyM]

If God is constrained it is because He is constrained by Himself and His own nature.

J, isn't it the case that, because of the fall, and man's subsequent sinful nature, absolute free will has to be a myth?

Like I said before, there really are 3 choices:

1. No free will / predestination (Calvinism, elcet vs. reprobate)
2. Free will, independent of anything else (Pelagianism, elect one's self)
3. God's grace and man's free will are 2 sides of the same coin and act in tandem (IMO the position that most closely aligns with scripture).

And by the way, not to change the subject or anything but where you fall in this 3-pronged spectrum has implications on belief in secured salvation.

If they are the only choices, then number 1 would be my choice by a country mile. But even with #1 I still see a certain freedom of the will, a freedom to make choices. This is by God's grace alone, for He has given us a way out of this sinful nature and its consequences.

[RickD]

Like I said before, there really are 3 choices:

1. No free will / predestination (Calvinism, elcet vs. reprobate)
2. Free will, independent of anything else (Pelagianism, elect one's self)
3. God's grace and man's free will are 2 sides of the same coin and act in tandem (IMO the position that most closely aligns with scripture).

Just by the basic layout you have here, Byblos, I can't see myself believing in any of those. But, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "2 sides of the same coin". I guess, maybe from the 3 choices you put, I'd say I believe in some of 1 and some of 3.
It would be interesting to see how different people believe in free will, and secured salvation.
Byblos, from what I've read, your belief in free will, and God's omniscience, is pretty similar to what I believe. But, our beliefs in assurance differ. Danny and I seem to have similar beliefs in assurance, but, I'm not sure if we agree about predestination, and free will. I don't think we can easily classify ourselves into little ism's, that people like to do sometimes. Like for example: Rick, you believe "x" about predestination, and assurance, so you must be a "x"ist.

[jlay]

Obviously 3 is a broad sweep, and there are several things that could fall under it.

But many a Calvinist would argue that their view of predestination means no free will. This isn't my position obviously, but does help to enlighten one to the Reformed position and that free will doesn't always mean the same thing to different people.
http://www.noble-minded.org/calvinism.html

[DannyM]

Brother, Yes we are secure. This was shown in the secured salvation thread.

Oh I beg to differ ...

Was that me getting ahead of myself again?

[Byblos]

Like I said before, there really are 3 choices:

1. No free will / predestination (Calvinism, elcet vs. reprobate)
2. Free will, independent of anything else (Pelagianism, elect one's self)
3. God's grace and man's free will are 2 sides of the same coin and act in tandem (IMO the position that most closely aligns with scripture).

Just by the basic layout you have here, Byblos, I can't see myself believing in any of those. But, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "2 sides of the same coin". I guess, maybe from the 3 choices you put, I'd say I believe in some of 1 and some of 3.
It would be interesting to see how different people believe in free will, and secured salvation.
Byblos, from what I've read, your belief in free will, and God's omniscience, is pretty similar to what I believe. But, our beliefs in assurance differ. Danny and I seem to have similar beliefs in assurance, but, I'm not sure if we agree about predestination, and free will. I don't think we can easily classify ourselves into little ism's, that people like to do sometimes. Like for example: Rick, you believe "x" about predestination, and assurance, so you must be a "x"ist.

I agree that the lines are blurred between 1 and 3 and I'm not even sure there isn't a 4th or 5th option. But I, like you, am somewhere between 1 and 3 as well. Just about the only thing I am certain of is that we can do nothing apart from God's grace and will.

What I meant by implications wrt secured salvation is that the belief sort of forces you into either Calvinism or Pelaginaism/Antinomianism (here I go again with all those isms) and since I believe in some measure of free will, I reject both (and by extension, secured salvation, but let's not go there again, shall we?).

[RickD]

What I meant by implications wrt secured salvation is that the belief sort of forces you into either Calvinism or Pelaginaism/Antinomianism (here I go again with all those isms) and since I believe in some measure of free will, I reject both (and by extension, secured salvation, but let's not go there again, shall we?).

Byblos, from what I know about Pelagianism and Antinomianism, I reject both as well. However, as you know, I believe in assurance of salvation, for the true child of God.

[DannyM]

http://www.noble-minded.org/calvinism.html

Very good article. There are some parts I disagree with but, on free will, I basically agree with this:

Similarly, I believe God does not need to break the reality of human choice in order to be in absolute sovereign control of what choices we make. As Lord over His creation, He preordains what our choices will be, even while genuinely allowing us to make those choices.

One of the clearest manifestations of this idea is in the inspiration of Scripture. The Bible is very clear that all Scripture is “God-breathed” (2 Tim. 3:16). The human authors wrote exactly what God chose for them to write (2 Pet. 1:21). But the human authors did not therefore view themselves as simply puppets in the process. They made real choices regarding what to write. Or at least that seems to be the most straightforward way of reading their many explanations as to why they chose to write one thing or another. For example:

“It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus...” – Luke 1:3

“I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice.” – 2 Cor. 2:3

“Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say.” – 2 Cor. 12:6

“Although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.” – Jude 3

The point is that the human authors of Scripture had real choices regarding what they wrote even though God was ultimately in control of what they ended up choosing. Similarly, we have real choices in our lives, including the all-important choice of whether or not to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, even though God ultimately predetermines who will end up choosing what. The doctrine of predestination and the denial of absolute free will do not strip the reality out of human choice.

God created us to act freely. But we are not independent from God, and we are not free from our desires. So we act according to our desires and to our nature.

[domokunrox]

God created us to act freely is Free will, Danny.

Unless you define "act freely" as predestined. Which isn't acting freely.

Liberty and Determinism do not co-exist as the same time and same sense.

The only conclusion we can come up with is that our choices are not the same sense of God's prophecies and omniscient property.

I propose that God has another property of his knowledge that is different and better then omniscience so that he can know us. This knowledge he has would not violate the free will that he obviously has designed us to be able to exercise.

[CeT-To]

Yeah... i'm not so sure about absolute free will either. Though one wonders what the essence of the sinful nature is..

It's man's inherent need to act on all his desires.

Where does this inherent need come from?