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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:45 pm
by RickD
Quick question for domokunrox.
Dom, you said before, that since I was never baptized in water, I don't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit comes upon a believer at the time of water baptism. How do you reconcile your belief with the following:
1Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Dom, I'm telling you right now, "JESUS IS LORD!!!" How, in light of 1Corinthians 12:3, can I make that statement, if I don't have the Holy Spirit inside me?
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:53 pm
by zacchaeus
Rick... you are saved!!!!!!!!!
Why does man complicate the Word of GOD when He is not the author of confusion...
I'm not sure He would even approve of this ridiculous thread of nonsense.
Acts 15:11
Through grace of the LORD... not obedience to ceremonials!!! FAITH in Christ; Christ purifies Hearts... sanctification by the Holy Spirit, both a gift from God, both cannot be separated. Your baptized by the Spirit at FAITH... and will not FAITH come by um, hearing, no water necessary, if so then by all means we could sale bottles of salvation and put a price-tag on salvation; yep sounds ridiculous much like the nonsense in this thread.
Eph 2:5
God made us alive while we were dead in sins, by grace we are saved. It doesn't say, by water we are saved. The word "quickened" is used in lots of versions like the KJV and to me means the manifestation of spiritual life for we weren't dead physically... but in our sins we were dead spiritually until we were quickened.
"God's eternal love or good-will toward his creatures, is the fountain whence all his mercies flow to us; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy is rich mercy. And every converted sinner is a saved sinner; delivered from sin and wrath. The grace that saves is the free, undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul...None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, or accuse it of any tendency to evil. All who do so, are without excuse."-MHC
I'm reminded... "Nothing but the blood of Jesus, nothing but the blood of JESUS!!!" All I know and want to know is Him, and Him crucified... and that He is ALIVE!!! Water didn't save Him nor did it bring Him back to life, nor allow Him into Heaven.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:17 pm
by neo-x
I thought this thread was on water baptism, not predestination.
Dom, could you comment on my post to your reply in the previous thread that got locked. our convo's broke after that....sorry I get bz and most days don't have time to respond, my apologies.
neo-x on Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:18 pm
Dom
Neo-x, Jesus IS THE AUTHORITY to forgive sins. Are you saying Jesus can't do that? He asked Jesus to forgive him, and he showed mercy to him. Think about what you're saying, Neo-x.
I agree but it was you who claimed that without being born of water we can not go to heaven. You asserted it as an absolute, that if we haven't done this, then we should be fearful of the consequences. and I quote you
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
Does this not strike fear in the heart of anyone here? Do you have the faith to follow him?
Dom, you can't have it both ways, either Baptism by water, as you say, is essential to salvation, or it isn't. What you are saying now, is what I said before, Baptism or no baptism, God can forgive your sins, accept you as his son and enter you into his kingdom. If you think that it only takes faith, then I can not see why water is so important to you. I mean you can say I am frightened of water, but are you obsessive about it? I mean how do you respond to this?
And the references you quoted are not about the original twelve disciples, I asked you about those. How do you know they were baptised, were they?
It really is a stretch of a connection you tried to make between
and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized
&
Here is Paul baptizing at Ephesus
These disciples said this "“No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”" Clearly, Jesus' disciples knew about the Holy spirit, they knew it very well. They had seen its work at the day of the Pentecost and even earlier when Jesus talked to them about it. So you surely don't mean to tell me that these are the 12 disciples of Jesus, the same very twelve that Jesus spoke to in Mark 10:38-40. Because the words tell me they are not.
I am going to be honest here, guys. I am rather embarrassed here. Again, not to be mocking here. This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water. This is the only place I know where water is actually amniotic fluid. Why am I getting so much resistance to baptism here. Are you guys frightened of the water?
Why? I am not embarrassed to answer you even when your view directly opposes mine. Can you not extend me the same courtesy or am I too silly or amateur to have this gesture from you?
About water, you would know that water is used in so much symbolism in the Bible that there are a lot of interpretations of it. So I think you are dragging it when you say,
"This is God and Science and this is the only place where water isn't water. This is the only place I know where water is actually amniotic fluid"
As you say, you have been into the Bible and apologetics and all, I am kind of surprised you didn't come across this. I mean, like you, I do not think that water is amniotic fluid, but I don't react to it with such intensity. Some people have their own interpretation, we all have. It is not a big issue. I can disagree, which I often do. You gotta take disagreements as well.
And if you think we're all idiots here, then I can't really help it, can I?
PS. By the way Dom, I was baptised with water, and I am certainly not undermining the symbolism it holds to the gospel. But being baptised of water does not make me any better then someone who is not baptised of water and still love God with all their hearts and carry out his will. It is the Spirit that of God that makes me a child of God. Baptism at best is the symbolism of the Gospel and the act of the Christ but is it essential to salvation? I do not hold so.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:07 am
by domokunrox
This thread is comedy. How did you guys start talking about predestination in the thread about baptism?
Again, I do not believe the Calvinist definition of predestination. I also don't believe their definition of election. I simply don't agree with them on many things. They make God look 1 dimensional and seem like a monster comparable to fundamentalist Islam.
You guys give God's creation (made in his image) zero credit in being able to be reasonable. God calls us to reason. God asks for our consent. God never changes. Go back and read Isaiah chapter 1. Of course God has to make the first move and send his message, but he allows us space to respond.
Some of you seem to get confused and think that responding undermines God in some sort of way. It certainly does not. The bibal describes salvation as a gift. As a gift, you need to accept it. Accepting it does not undermine the fact that you cannot possibly obtain the amazing gift "on your own" or "by works alone". I do not understand how anyone can be so dense to understanding something so simple.
Again, in Isaiah God calls us to obey him. Being reasonable and consent to God requires obedience. Obedience requires ACTION ON YOUR PART. You must exercise your God given free will to obey him and to redeem the gift he has offered. This should be very simple to understand, yet some here make it more complicated then this.
You nay sayers on water baptism are seriously taking a gamble. Jesus is the authority. Jesus asked his disciples to follow him. God spoke at the transfiguration saying "Listen to him". Yet, you cannot follow the obedience of water baptism? Cannot understand the great commission Jesus gave before leaving? Jesus said you must be born of WATER AND SPIRIT. The Ethiopian said "Look! Water!". Peter said surely one CANNOT REFUSE THE WATER.
Naaman was willing to do anything, but thought the water was silly. The 7th time worked. Any response to this?
I get a kick out of Danny's comment on "Faith alone". That's heresy, Danny. You're saying the bible is false. (NASB)James 2:17-18
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. [18] But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Rick, my response to you is that the holy spirit comes after water baptism. Again, Peter said, SURELY ONE CANNOT REFUSE THE WATER. Look it up. I am sorry to tell you that you don't have the gift of the holy spirit. Obey God's command and receive the baptism and if you really do believe and accept it, you will know the difference.
Neo, take your questions out of the quote. Its a mess, my phone can't handle that.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:29 am
by domokunrox
(NASB)Romans 11:20-22, 30-32
Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; [21] for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. [22] Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God''s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [30] For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. [32] For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:33 am
by domokunrox
Just for you Rick.
Here is Peter. His words should strike you hard.
(NASB)Acts 10:45-48
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. [46] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, [47] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" [48] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:35 am
by neo-x
Neo, take your questions out of the quote. Its a mess, my phone can't handle that.
then perhaps the best way would be for you to read you post to which I replied, in order to get the context, I can quote all that here but again that would do no good to your phone.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:36 am
by neo-x
ahh well here we go with the judgements again
Look it up. I am sorry to tell you that you don't have the gift of the holy spirit.
wow! quite a claim you got there Dom. You have constrained God quite tightly there, Dom, haven't you?
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:38 am
by neo-x
btw, Dom. You never gave the reference to where the 12 disciples of Jesus were baptised?
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:45 am
by domokunrox
Sorry to go quote crazy, but here is more.
(NASB)Matthew 11:28-30
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. [29] "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. [30] "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(NASB)Luke 14:27-30
"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [28] "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? [29] "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, [30] saying, ''This man began to build and was not able to finish.''
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:50 am
by neo-x
Dom, I do not see how the below verses are specifically related to our conversation here. care to elaborate how this fits with Baptism or you are addressing something different?
(NASB)Matthew 11:28-30
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. [29] "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. [30] "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(NASB)Luke 14:27-30
"Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. [28] "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? [29] "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, [30] saying, ''This man began to build and was not able to finish.''
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:09 am
by domokunrox
Neo, the Jesus' 12 disciples received the holy spirit in a VERY SPECIAL, one of a kind way that we cannot get. The baptism of repentance could not do the job, yet. There was no sacrifice, yet. There was no command on how, yet.
It all became clear in Acts. You must REPENT BEFORE YOU RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. Peter stressed this point out plenty of times.
Also, my point on those quotes is for showing distinction between faith and obidence.
Show your faith by your obidence. Much like you would show your faith by your work.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:21 am
by neo-x
Also, my point on those quotes is for showing distinction between faith and obidence.
Show your faith by your obidence. Much like you would show your faith by your work.
I see, thanx.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:26 am
by neo-x
Why does man complicate the Word of GOD when He is not the author of confusion...
I'm not sure He would even approve of this ridiculous thread of nonsense.
comeon Zac, chill, this is just a discussion. No one is forcing anyone to believe something else.
Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread
Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:44 am
by neo-x
Neo, the Jesus' 12 disciples received the holy spirit in a VERY SPECIAL, one of a kind way that we cannot get. The baptism of repentance could not do the job, yet. There was no sacrifice, yet. There was no command on how, yet.
While I agree that what happened to the early church and Jesus was a one time thing, I was not talking about the baptism of the holy spirit but water baptism. I seem to find no reference as to where the 12 disciples were water baptised.
So you are saying that people who were baptised before the Holy spirit came on the day of pentecost, their baptism meant nothing unless they partake in the baptism of the Holy spirit?
I still don't see how water baptism is a necessity to have the holy spirit baptism. sure you can have the water baptism after you receive the Holy spirit, I have nothing against that but when you say that one can not have the holy spirit with out water baptism, you are simply trying to declare something you have no authority over.