Evidence for God from Science

Bav,
If it is as you say, that if I'm living by the spirit, and God's Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin, then I should be convicted every time I don't worship on the sabbath. And every time I work on the sabbath. Every commandment of the 10, that I have broken, the Holy Spirit has convicted me of. Every single one except the fourth.

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit, inside me, doesn't convict me of not observing the sabbath, as you say I should, if I'm living by the spirit?

RickD wrote:Bav,
If it is as you say, that if I'm living by the spirit, and God's Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin, then I should be convicted every time I don't worship on the sabbath. And every time I work on the sabbath. Every commandment of the 10, that I have broken, the Holy Spirit has convicted me of. Every single one except the fourth.

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit, inside me, doesn't convict me of not observing the sabbath, as you say I should, if I'm living by the spirit?

It's not me saying...

Are you asking me to answer for the the Holy Spirit? I could hardly do so. However, what I can do as a Christian is look at this and ponder and pray on it. If the 10 are all written by God's hand, then it stands to reason that all 10 are perpetual and should be kept (as best a sinner can). If Christ's ministry is 95% ( if not more ) things done on the Sabbath and Sabbath related controversy, why not give it the same position as Christ did if we are calling ourselves Christians.

Now...I've mentioned before so let me say that not every person going to heaven will be a Sabbath keeper or one that is convinced that Sabbath is a perpetual Law of God equal to the other 9 Commandments. As an Adventist, I have a feeling that there will come a time not unlike the days of Shadrach and his buddies where this point will be a defining point between believers (as it is now, it is.) and MAY be a point which one might be forced to decide on. That is my Adventism speaking.

But I do see some hint of this in the NT and a point I'm not willing to toss aside. In addition to the texts below, Christ's life didn't toss the Sabbath aside either.

"If you love me, keep my commands..." ( John 14:15 )

"You let go of God's commands to keep men's" "you are experts at setting aside God's commands..."( Mark 7:8,9 )

"He who obeys, loves me" ( John 14:21 )

"If you obey, you remain in my love." ( John 10:10 )

"Circumcision is nothing, keeping God's commands is what counts." ( 1 Corinthians 7:19 )

"We know we know Him because we obey. The man who says he knows Him yet does not do what He commands is a liar." ( 1 John 2:3,4 )

"We obey His commands and do what pleases Him...those who obey His commands live in Him...by the Spirit." ( 1 John 3:22, 23, 24 )

"This is how we know, we carry out His commands...His commands are not burdensome." ( 1 John 5:2,3 )

"This is love, that we walk in obedience to His commands." ( 2 John 1:6 )

"This calls for patient endurance for those who obey God's commandments..." ( Revelation 14:12 )
.
.

Mercy Wheels, that is a proof texting nightmare if I do say so.

Let me give you an example.
"Circumcision (A dadblame commandment) is nothing, keeping God's commands (isn't circumcission one?) is what counts." ( 1 Corinthians 7:19 )

When you pluck and tuck verses to build what you already are trying to prove, you are bound to eventually find one that blatantly blows up your own argument.

"This is how we know, we carry out His commands (except for all those other ones we don't keep)...His commands (uhh, the 10, even though there is NOTHING in the context to state such) are not burdensome." ( 1 John 5:2,3 )

Oh, and John even mentions the commands in the context, which have nothing to do with the decalogue.
Here is one. 1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
Oh, and here.......1 John 3:23 "And this is his commandment, That we should (1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and (2) love one another, as he gave us commandment."
Which one of the 10 are those???? I'm confused.
Let me proof text one from 1 john for you.
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Have you sinned since becomming a believer. If so then what according to this?

Bav,
If it is as you say, that if I'm living by the spirit, and God's Holy Spirit convicts me when I sin, then I should be convicted every time I don't worship on the sabbath. And every time I work on the sabbath. Every commandment of the 10, that I have broken, the Holy Spirit has convicted me of. Every single one except the fourth.

Can you explain why the Holy Spirit, inside me, doesn't convict me of not observing the sabbath, as you say I should, if I'm living by the spirit?

BavarianWheels wrote:
It's not me saying...
Are you asking me to answer for the the Holy Spirit?

It absolutely is you saying. And, I'm asking you to answer for your interpretation. It's the SDA's, and your interpretation of scripture. You said Keeping the sabbath should not be burdensome. I have no conviction whatsoever to keep the sabbath, as you say we should. So, that leaves two logical conclusions that I can see:
1) If you are correct in your interpretation, The Holy Spirit is not in me.
or
2) Your interpretation is wrong.
Is there any other possibility?

BavarianWheels wrote:
If the 10 are all written by God's hand, then it stands to reason that all 10 are perpetual and should be kept (as best a sinner can).

"as best a sinner can"? Sounds like trying to obey the Law, by one's own power. A born-again believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. HE(The Holy Spirit) is the one who transforms us to the image of Christ, by the power of God. Not "as best we can".

This has been an interesting discussion and I have never discussed the sabbath with a SDA or any other "sabbathite" ( is that the word?)
Very interesting how they interpret scripture, even the verse that say that observation of the sabbath is NOT mandatory for non-jews.
My main experience with groups that have "unique" interpretations of the bible has been with JW's but this has been very intriguing.
Thanks Bav.

RickD wrote:So, that leaves two logical conclusions that I can see:
1) If you are correct in your interpretation, The Holy Spirit is not in me.
or
2) Your interpretation is wrong.
Is there any other possibility?

Sure...at least two. (but firstly, I hardly believe the HS is not in you)

1.) You've been presented with another interpretation to ponder. (I am human and could be wrong, no doubt, but I am confident as are you.)

2.) The HS simply hasn't moved yet...

RickD wrote:"as best a sinner can"? Sounds like trying to obey the Law, by one's own power. A born-again believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit of God. HE(The Holy Spirit) is the one who transforms us to the image of Christ, by the power of God. Not "as best we can".

ok. I can see how you might interpret "as best a sinner can" in that light.

Question: Does being indwelet (sp?) by the HS mean that from the point which the HS comes into our lives that from that point on we do everything according to God's will perfectly? I would say Paul's "wretched man" suggests we don't. Hence the "as best a sinner can." point. We all sin continually and so fall short of God's glory ( Romans 3:23 ) It is in this sense that I say, "as best a sinner can."

At least a few times now I've made the point that following the Law is not done in order to gain salvation as we have already been justified freely by his grace through Christ. ( Romans 3:24 ) No part of Sabbath keeping, or abstaining from murder for that matter, gains me or any sinner everlasting life.

PaulSacramento wrote:This has been an interesting discussion and I have never discussed the sabbath with a SDA or any other "sabbathite" ( is that the word?)
Very interesting how they interpret scripture, even the verse that say that observation of the sabbath is NOT mandatory for non-jews.
My main experience with groups that have "unique" interpretations of the bible has been with JW's but this has been very intriguing.
Thanks Bav.

I sense a bit of sarcasm, but you're welcome anyway.

Because you don't hold to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy..." being equal and as binding as "Thou shall not murder", does not mean the HS is not in you or is only in the Adventist. If it is God's will, every Christian will be convinced of His Truth when the time comes. And even if this doesn't come about, I believe we will see each other in heaven nonetheless. We can giggle about this discussion then.
.
.

I sense a bit of sarcasm, but you're welcome anyway.

Because you don't hold to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy..." being equal and as binding as "Thou shall not murder", does not mean the HS is not in you or is only in the Adventist. If it is God's will, every Christian will be convinced of His Truth when the time comes. And even if this doesn't come about, I believe we will see each other in heaven nonetheless. We can giggle about this discussion then.

No sarcasm at all, truly.
I have never discussed this issue with a SDA or anyone of a similar denomination.
You are a dear brother in Christ my friend and again, I thank you for explaining your views to me.

RickD wrote:
So, that leaves two logical conclusions that I can see:
1) If you are correct in your interpretation, The Holy Spirit is not in me.
or
2) Your interpretation is wrong.
Is there any other possibility?

Sure...at least two. (but firstly, I hardly believe the HS is not in you)

1.) You've been presented with another interpretation to ponder. (I am human and could be wrong, no doubt, but I am confident as are you.)

2.) The HS simply hasn't moved yet...

It's an issue(observing the sabbath) that I've thought about in the past. And, I've never felt led to observe the sabbath in any way. Every other of the ten commandments that I've had to deal with, in one way or another, I've been convicted on by the HS. I could see if this was the first time "sabbath observance" came up with me, but it's not.

Question: Does being indwelet (sp?) by the HS mean that from the point which the HS comes into our lives that from that point on we do everything according to God's will perfectly? I would say Paul's "wretched man" suggests we don't. Hence the "as best a sinner can." point. We all sin continually and so fall short of God's glory ( Romans 3:23 ) It is in this sense that I say, "as best a sinner can."

I describe my self as a "walking civil war". The flesh vs. the spirit. So, I understand your references to Romans. Not that you yourself feel this way, but I see a lot of Christians striving to be the best they can be, in the flesh. To me, that's a losing battle.

At least a few times now I've made the point that following the Law is not done in order to gain salvation as we have already been justified freely by his grace through Christ. ( Romans 3:24 ) No part of Sabbath keeping, or abstaining from murder for that matter, gains me or any sinner everlasting life.

Is following the Law, something that affects sanctification of a believer, in your opinion?

RickD wrote:I describe my self as a "walking civil war". The flesh vs. the spirit. So, I understand your references to Romans. Not that you yourself feel this way, but I see a lot of Christians striving to be the best they can be, in the flesh. To me, that's a losing battle.

I keep making the same statement over and over, but you cannot seem to take it. It's a losing battle for the Christian sinner EVEN with the Spirit in us ( as we have an example by no less than Paul's "wretched man" and even you in your "walking civil war" ) but at the same time Paul never set aside God's Law, but admonished that he and we all uphold it as it leads to Christ and if it is righteous and holy, it is the standard by which the sinner must uphold if he/she calls themselves Christian. ( see the many references in previous posts which it seems you haven't even read over )

RickD wrote:Is following the Law, something that affects sanctification of a believer, in your opinion?

Does the Law affect a believer's sanctification? Sanctification/sanctify means to set apart for sacred use, to free from sin. If the Law points at what sin is, then to be free from sin is to comply with the Law. However we know that our sanctification is a process that is NEVER COMPLETED this side of salvation ( more likely, not even close ), but only at the last trump, and at the "twinkling of an eye". ( 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 )

I keep making the same statement over and over, but you cannot seem to take it.

I hear you, I just disagree.

It's a losing battle for the Christian sinner EVEN with the Spirit in us ( as we have an example by no less than Paul's "wretched man" and even you in your "walking civil war" ) but at the same time Paul never set aside God's Law, but admonished that he and we all uphold it as it leads to Christ and if it is righteous and holy, it is the standard by which the sinner must uphold if he/she calls themselves Christian. ( see the many references in previous posts which it seems you haven't even read over )

Bav, I've read all the posts, and I just don't agree with what you're saying about the sabbath. The Law is impossible to uphold, for anyone. If keeping the Law were the standard, then we all fail. I agree that the Law points to Christ, and the need for a savior. The law is there, so we all know we are lawbreakers, and need Christ. The Law isn't there so we all strive to uphold it. That's how I see it.

Does the Law affect a believer's sanctification? Sanctification/sanctify means to set apart for sacred use, to free from sin. If the Law points at what sin is, then to be free from sin is to comply with the Law.

Now, this seems to be saying that to be free from sin, we need to follow the law. The Holy Spirit is the one who sanctifies the believer. The believer isn't sanctified by following the law. It seems that's what you're saying, that by upholding the law, we are sanctified. Again, the law points to what sin is, so we can see we can't uphold the Law, and we need Christ. The Law doesn't point to sin, so that we can comply with the Law. Christ freed us from the wages of sin. Trying to comply with the Law does nothing but put a heavy burden on a believer, that Christ has already carried.

RickD wrote:

I keep making the same statement over and over, but you cannot seem to take it.

I hear you, I just disagree.

Ok...disagree, don't be inserting what isn't in my words in that I have to keep repeating myself.

RickD wrote:Bav, I've read all the posts, and I just don't agree with what you're saying about the sabbath. The Law is impossible to uphold, for anyone. If keeping the Law were the standard, then we all fail. I agree that the Law points to Christ, and the need for a savior. The law is there, so we all know we are lawbreakers, and need Christ. The Law isn't there so we all strive to uphold it. That's how I see it.

Then Paul is crazy for suggesting we should uphold it. ( Romans 3:31 )

RickD wrote:Now, this seems to be saying that to be free from sin, we need to follow the law. The Holy Spirit is the one who sanctifies the believer. The believer isn't sanctified by following the law. It seems that's what you're saying, that by upholding the law, we are sanctified.

Here we go again? Please refer to the above about repeating myself.

Once again... ( sigh )

The HS is the one who sanctifies. Agreed.

The believer is not sanctified by following the Law. Agreed.

I am not saying that by upholding the Law we are sanctified.

RickD wrote:Again, the law points to what sin is,

If we agree that the Law points to sin, then to do what is opposed to the Law is to willingly sin...and thus, go against the Spirit which does submit to God's Law. ( see Romans 8:7,8,9 )

RickD wrote:so we can see we can't uphold the Law, and we need Christ.

Then Paul is suggesting we do something he knows we cannot do...or he is a liar and furthermore, a legalist. ( Romans 3:31 )

RickD wrote:The Law doesn't point to sin, so that we can comply with the Law.

Agreed.

RickD wrote:Christ freed us from the wages of sin.

Agreed.

RickD wrote:Trying to comply with the Law does nothing but put a heavy burden on a believer,

Agreed...if we are trying to comply with the Law to gain righteousness of our own efforts/works.

RickD wrote:that Christ has already carried.

Agreed. Christ carried the "burden" for us...as you say.

Let's look at this from this point of view. YOU SAY, Christ has carried the burden of complying with the Law. I agree. Why? Isn't it in order that through His righeousness we may be declared righteous? ( basic Gospel ) So if Christ has stood in our place and is innocent of being a lawbreaker, then the Law is the STANDARD by which righteousness is measured...these are words from your own fingers...that Christ carried the burden ( of complying to the Law ) for us.

So logically then, if Christ submitted to God's Law ( His own Law ), what makes us think we, even being freed from the power of the Law, we need not uphold it as Paul says we should? ( see 1 Corinthians 15:56 ) The power of the Law to demand death is sin being found. So we are freed from this power of sin ( 1 Corinthians 15:57 ) and given victory THROUGH Jesus Christ. Since Christ was/is innocent of any sin, He is therefore a Law Keeper and the Law declares Him innocent of sin so sin's power is nil on Christ and removed, in our case. His perfection is given to us by grace, through faith.

You can certainly disagree, but please don't keep suggesting this is anything close to works-based righteousness. It is simply living "according to the Spirit" as best a sinner can ( in that even with the Spirit in us, we still sin...Paul's "wretched man" and your "walking civil war" ). A sinner cannot keep any of the 10 perfectly, but just because we can't doesn't mean we throw all or even part of it out.

Bav, If it seems I'm suggesting that you're observing the sabbath, as a kind of works based salvation, or sanctification, I'm not saying you are. I'm just looking at this, and asking questions. I'm trying to understand your POV. That's all. Nothing more. After this whole thread, I really can't see any justification for saying we as Christians have to observe the sabbath as a day of worship, and rest. I can certainly see if, in your mind, you want to make one day a week more important than the others. But, you're not just making it a matter of conscience, settled in your mind. You believe all Christians should naturally(if living by the spirit) want to observe the sabbath. I think all of the 10 commandments are in our conscience. We know in our conscience, its wrong to murder, steal, commit adultery, dishonor our parents, bear false witness, covet our neighbor's things, and worship another god. But, I just don't see that picking one specific day of the week to worship and rest, is written on all of our consciences.

Warning: a rant.

Seriously, what is this obsession with defining practically everything written in scripture as being a work? Don't get baptized, that's a work, don't repent and confess your sins that's a work, don't observe the Sabbath oh no, don't this, don't do that. It's almost as if the mentality is to step as far away from Catholicism as possible but in the process we are losing something much more precious, obedience. And no, not obedience as a work to gain salvation (I can't believe I even have to repeat that), not even for sanctification (and once again I am incredulous that I've been hearing lately even sanctification requires nothing to be done lest it, God forbid, be classified as a work ). But obedience out of love, obedience because we were commanded to do so by Christ himself. There is a reason you know, why he said to do these things. Even though we may disagree on the semantics of what that means, I think it should be obvious enough that we ought to do them simply because he said so. Not in a legalistic, ritualistic manner, but truly and simply out of obedience and love.

Okay, rant over, carry on.

Byblos wrote:Warning: a rant.

Seriously, what is this obsession with defining practically everything written in scripture as being a work? Don't get baptized, that's a work, don't repent and confess your sins that's a work, don't observe the Sabbath oh no, don't this, don't do that. It's almost as if the mentality is to step as far away from Catholicism as possible but in the process we are losing something much more precious, obedience. And no, not obedience as a work to gain salvation (I can't believe I even have to repeat that), not even for sanctification (and once again I am incredulous that I've been hearing lately even sanctification requires nothing to be done lest it, God forbid, be classified as a work ). But obedience out of love, obedience because we were commanded to do so by Christ himself. There is a reason you know, why he said to do these things. Even though we may disagree on the semantics of what that means, I think it should be obvious enough that we ought to do them simply because he said so. Not in a legalistic, ritualistic manner, but truly and simply out of obedience and love.

Okay, rant over, carry on.

I think the issue is NOT that it is "work" ( anything done by definition is work).
The issue is whether one should do a SPECIFIC thing to be in God's "god grace" as it were.
Should we keep the sabbath ( a work, deed, whichever term you want to use) because it was commanded to Israel in the 10 commandments?
and WHY?
Does keeping the Sabbath, if we choose to do it, make our worship of God more "correct" than someone that doesn't?

RickD wrote:Bav, If it seems I'm suggesting that you're observing the sabbath, as a kind of works based salvation, or sanctification, I'm not saying you are. I'm just looking at this, and asking questions. I'm trying to understand your POV. That's all. Nothing more. After this whole thread, I really can't see any justification for saying we as Christians have to observe the sabbath as a day of worship, and rest. I can certainly see if, in your mind, you want to make one day a week more important than the others. But, you're not just making it a matter of conscience, settled in your mind. You believe all Christians should naturally(if living by the spirit) want to observe the sabbath. I think all of the 10 commandments are in our conscience. We know in our conscience, its wrong to murder, steal, commit adultery, dishonor our parents, bear false witness, covet our neighbor's things, and worship another god. But, I just don't see that picking one specific day of the week to worship and rest, is written on all of our consciences.

Basically what you're saying fails the test of simple human logic. We know there are 10 Commandments that God wrote with His own hand/finger on tablets of stone. The simple poetry in that alone is enough. Then Christ LIVES according to that whole Law and more specifically is LIVING a life of keeping the Sabbath of creation, but "fails" to mention it as a "which laws are good...". Then to top it off, we Christians nullify that which we are told to uphold, ( obviously Paul understood Christ's life "work" to teach the proper Sabbath keeping and it was considered common knowledge. "as was His custom" ) not in part, but as a whole...we admit that 9 Laws are on our conscience, but deny the central Law which God Himself wrote and is clearly put into place and because of a PAST event and not a shadow or future of things to come.

You don't see that picking one specific day of the week to worship and rest is written on our conscience, yet GOD picked one specific day of the week to do so HIMSELF... it was on His conscience, but WE, the created, cannot see any reason to follow God's will?

Mark 7:6,7,8 wrote: "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" `These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'
You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

Words of Christ ring with the same truth today...and further, He quotes Isaiah...the OT and then immediately after quotes Moses and the 5th Commandment! What more evidence does a people need?

Byblos wrote:Warning: a rant.

Seriously, what is this obsession with defining practically everything written in scripture as being a work? Don't get baptized, that's a work, don't repent and confess your sins that's a work, don't observe the Sabbath oh no, don't this, don't do that. It's almost as if the mentality is to step as far away from Catholicism as possible but in the process we are losing something much more precious, obedience. And no, not obedience as a work to gain salvation (I can't believe I even have to repeat that), not even for sanctification (and once again I am incredulous that I've been hearing lately even sanctification requires nothing to be done lest it, God forbid, be classified as a work ). But obedience out of love, obedience because we were commanded to do so by Christ himself. There is a reason you know, why he said to do these things. Even though we may disagree on the semantics of what that means, I think it should be obvious enough that we ought to do them simply because he said so. Not in a legalistic, ritualistic manner, but truly and simply out of obedience and love.

Okay, rant over, carry on.

.
.