Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Have you read the reply of Muslims to this argument?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ongod.html

Nonsense.. Of course they are going to want you to believe that their god is the G-d of the Bible. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Their god is not the G-d the Bible. Buy a koran and read it. They don't even know what it is they worship.

Similar arguments have been put forth VS Christianity.

Paul, must you always play the role of Devil's Advocate?

Well...we had to study the Koran for a semester in Theology class, to get a better understanding of how and why Muslims view Christians and Christianity they way they do.
We also studied and research the many writings against Islam and how similar they were in genre as those done against Christianity (which we have all heard here of course).
My point is that, for the typical Musilm, Allah is the same God as Yahweh and WAS the same God that Christian used to worship before the resurrection of Christ and the Doctrine of the trinity.
I have had discussion with Jewish rabbi's and they make it clear that they do NOT think that Christians worship the Hebrew God, Yahweh, to them is NOT a triune Deity, does NOT begget in the substance since of the word ( a true God from God) and has never been incarnate in any way.
So, to some rabbi's, The Christian God as as much a pagan God to them, as Allah is a pagan God to some Christians.

And I don't think this view and lack of understanding from all parts, does ANYONE any good BUT such is life.

My point is that, for the typical Musilm, Allah is the same God as Yahweh and WAS the same God that Christian used to worship before the resurrection of Christ and the Doctrine of the trinity.

Are you aware that the concept of the trinity, is in the Old Testament? The same Old Testament that was written before Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection? I know you're aware, but my point is that obviously, the typical Muslim isn't aware that God hasn't changed from the OT, to the NT. The typical Muslim doesn't believe in the trinity. And the Koran says that God doesn't have a son. So, maybe the typical Muslim doesn't actually know what the Koran says about the God of the bible. Maybe, like the typical nominal Christian doesn't know what the bible says about God.

And, maybe I'm wrong. And Muslims should be considered our brothers, just like Jews who don't accept Christ as the Messiah. Maybe Muslims are just waiting for their eyes to be opened to who Christ is, like Israel is waiting. And, maybe we should fellowship with Muslims, as future brothers in Christ, and just ignore doctrinal differences, for the sake of unity?

RickD wrote:

My point is that, for the typical Musilm, Allah is the same God as Yahweh and WAS the same God that Christian used to worship before the resurrection of Christ and the Doctrine of the trinity.

Are you aware that the concept of the trinity, is in the Old Testament? The same Old Testament that was written before Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection? I know you're aware, but my point is that obviously, the typical Muslim isn't aware that God hasn't changed from the OT, to the NT. The typical Muslim doesn't believe in the trinity. And the Koran says that God doesn't have a son. So, maybe the typical Muslim doesn't actually know what the Koran says about the God of the bible. Maybe, like the typical nominal Christian doesn't know what the bible says about God.

Implicit doesn't = explicit and we all know that even some Christian denominations do NOT agree with the trinity Doctrine.
Muslims tend to view, liek Hebrews, the mention of "God's son" as referring to an "adoption" of sorts and NOT as God sharing His Divine nature and existence with another. David was the Son of God, Adam was the Son of God, etc.
I do agree however that the typical Muslim has, much like the typical Christian or Jew, only a surface understanding of their Holy Book and they certainly shouldn't comment on the Holy Books of others.
It may well be the the "true" God of Islam is a pagan moon god, but for the typical Muslim, that is not the case.
They view themselves as worshiping the God of Abraham.
And as the link I posted shows, they too have answers to the critics view of "who is Allah".

RickD wrote:And, maybe I'm wrong. And Muslims should be considered our brothers, just like Jews who don't accept Christ as the Messiah. Maybe Muslims are just waiting for their eyes to be opened to who Christ is, like Israel is waiting. And, maybe we should fellowship with Muslims, as future brothers in Christ, and just ignore doctrinal differences, for the sake of unity?

I don't know if we can ignore differences, I mean, are Christians that have different doctrines from each other still brothers under Christ? I think so.
But to ignore the differences that call into question the very core of a religion? that is a tough one.
We may have to accept to "agree to disagree", knowing full well that eventually we ALL will know for sure.
I know a couple of Muslims that converted to Christianity ( I also know of some Christians that converted to Islam).
I think that we need a mutual respect for our beliefs as long as they do NOT harm others.

It may well be the the "true" God of Islam is a pagan moon god, but for the typical Muslim, that is not the case.
They view themselves as worshiping the God of Abraham.
And as the link I posted shows, they too have answers to the critics view of "who is Allah".

You have said it all in this paragraph, Paul. If Allah is a moon god, and typical Muslims are deceived by the god of this world, into believing that the god they worship, is the true God, then don't they need the truth that will set them free?

Implicit doesn't = explicit and we all know that even some Christian denominations do NOT agree with the trinity Doctrine.

I guess you and I disagree on what defines a Christian. Who is Jesus Christ? If a denomination teaches he is not the second person of the trinity, and just a man(not God in the flesh), then in my book, that denomination is not Christian, and teaches heresy. It's one thing for a Christian to not understand the concept of the trinity, but to deny that Christ is God, is anti-Christ, and has no business being called Christian. And as usual, I could be wrong, and we should all sit around singing kumbaya with anyone who believes in any kind of god.

RickD wrote:

Implicit doesn't = explicit and we all know that even some Christian denominations do NOT agree with the trinity Doctrine.

I guess you and I disagree on what defines a Christian. Who is Jesus Christ? If a denomination teaches he is not the second person of the trinity, and just a man(not God in the flesh), then in my book, that denomination is not Christian, and teaches heresy. It's one thing for a Christian to not understand the concept of the trinity, but to deny that Christ is God, is anti-Christ, and has no business being called Christian. And as usual, I could be wrong, and we should all sit around singing kumbaya with anyone who believes in any kind of god.

It is not up to me to judge who is or isn't Christian.
Just because one group disagrees with the trinity doctrine but still accepts Christ as Lord and saviour, does the disagreement with the Trinity doctrine make them "false" Christians or non-christian? were those that lived before the Doctrine of the trinity ever came to be formalized, not Christians because they didn't believe in a doctrine that didn't exist yet?
I can't make that call nor would I want to.

RickD wrote:

It may well be the the "true" God of Islam is a pagan moon god, but for the typical Muslim, that is not the case.
They view themselves as worshiping the God of Abraham.
And as the link I posted shows, they too have answers to the critics view of "who is Allah".

You have said it all in this paragraph, Paul. If Allah is a moon god, and typical Muslims are deceived by the god of this world, into believing that the god they worship, is the true God, then don't they need the truth that will set them free?

Yes, of course, IF ( and that is a big IF of course).
Of course the truth is only for those that are willing to accept it and that may be too much for some.
Works based religions like Islam can be very "enticing" to some because they has a set pattern and routine that is tangible,a "check list" for salvation if you will.
I recall debating with a Muslim and his inability to understand salvation as a gift, the concept of God's divine Grace and how the intent of what we do is what defines what we do ( not the act) and he just couldn't fathom the notion of God becoming Man so that man can be reconciled to God.

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

Implicit doesn't = explicit and we all know that even some Christian denominations do NOT agree with the trinity Doctrine.

I guess you and I disagree on what defines a Christian. Who is Jesus Christ? If a denomination teaches he is not the second person of the trinity, and just a man(not God in the flesh), then in my book, that denomination is not Christian, and teaches heresy. It's one thing for a Christian to not understand the concept of the trinity, but to deny that Christ is God, is anti-Christ, and has no business being called Christian. And as usual, I could be wrong, and we should all sit around singing kumbaya with anyone who believes in any kind of god.

It is not up to me to judge who is or isn't Christian.
Just because one group disagrees with the trinity doctrine but still accepts Christ as Lord and saviour, does the disagreement with the Trinity doctrine make them "false" Christians or non-christian? were those that lived before the Doctrine of the trinity ever came to be formalized, not Christians because they didn't believe in a doctrine that didn't exist yet?
I can't make that call nor would I want to.

Paul, if a group disagrees with the trinity, but still accepts Christ as lord and savior, wouldn't you wonder which "Christ" they believe in? The Christ we need to believe in, is the Jesus Christ of the bible. God incarnate. Not The Jesus Christ that's is merely some great prophet.
On Unitarians, from Wikipedia:

Thus, Unitarians adhere to strict monotheism, and maintain that Jesus was a prophet, perhaps even supernatural to some extent, but not God himself

You tell me, does a "denomination" that believes that, believe in the Jesus Christ of the bible? Or, are they believing in a false Christ?

PaulS wrote:
were those that lived before the Doctrine of the trinity ever came to be formalized, not Christians because they didn't believe in a doctrine that didn't exist yet?

Paul, the trinity is in the Old Testament. You do realize that, don't you?

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

It may well be the the "true" God of Islam is a pagan moon god, but for the typical Muslim, that is not the case.
They view themselves as worshiping the God of Abraham.
And as the link I posted shows, they too have answers to the critics view of "who is Allah".

You have said it all in this paragraph, Paul. If Allah is a moon god, and typical Muslims are deceived by the god of this world, into believing that the god they worship, is the true God, then don't they need the truth that will set them free?

Yes, of course, IF ( and that is a big IF of course).
Of course the truth is only for those that are willing to accept it and that may be too much for some.
Works based religions like Islam can be very "enticing" to some because they has a set pattern and routine that is tangible,a "check list" for salvation if you will.
I recall debating with a Muslim and his inability to understand salvation as a gift, the concept of God's divine Grace and how the intent of what we do is what defines what we do ( not the act) and he just couldn't fathom the notion of God becoming Man so that man can be reconciled to God.

So, what are you left with then? Preaching Universalism? All paths lead to God? As long as one has some concept of God, no matter how different than the God of the bible, they're good to go?

Rick, just because someone believes in and worships the same God we do doesn't mean that they are saved.

Jac3510 wrote:Rick, just because someone believes in and worships the same God we do doesn't mean that they are saved.

Jac, correct me then. Doesn't free grace, and you, teach that all one has to do to be saved, is to believe in Christ? So, if someone "believes in and worships the same God we do"(Christ), then why wouldn't he be saved? I thought you liked Free Grace, because it makes the gospel simple. Just believe, right?
Sheesh! I thought I was confusing.

I don't concede your premise. It's the premise you've been arguing that I've been disagreeing with throughout this entire thread. Just because one does not believe that Jesus is the Son of God, it does not follow that they do not believe in the same God. It is perfectly meaningful to say, "The God of Abraham has no incarnated Son." It's a wrong statement, but the only reason it can be wrong is the fact that it is meaningful. Meaningless statements are neither wrong nor right, precisely because you cannot be wrong or right unless you mean something to be wrong or right.

This just goes back to the first point I made that, for the most part, was ignored. Just because people disagree on the some of the attributes or features or works of God, it does not follow that they therefore believe in a different God. It just means that they don't believe certain statements about God are true, or it means that they believe that certain statements about God are false. The theology of you all arguing that Muslims and Jews have a different God makes it impossible to say incorrect things about Yahweh, because such incorrect statements turn out to be about someone other than Yahweh!

So regarding the Gospel, FG theology does not say that believing in God saves. It says believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God saves (John 20:31).

PaulSacramento wrote:

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: Have you read the reply of Muslims to this argument?
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/195/
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... ongod.html

Nonsense.. Of course they are going to want you to believe that their god is the G-d of the Bible. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Their god is not the G-d the Bible. Buy a koran and read it. They don't even know what it is they worship.

Similar arguments have been put forth VS Christianity.

Since you won't address the comparisons and think that Allah and the G-d of the Bible are the same, maybe you could answer some of these questions:

1. Where in the koran is it ever commanded to love your neighbor as yourself? The Bible commands us to love our neighbor as ourself Mark 12:29-31, Leviticus 19:18.
2. Where in the koran is a description of their god? According to the Bible, G-d is love 1 John 4:8.
3. Why is it told in the koran to beat your wife if she get's out of line? Sura 4:34 The Bible tells us to love your wife sacrificially Ephesians 5:25-27.
4. Why is it told in the koran not to take Christians or Jews as friends if they worship the same god? Sura 5:51. The Bible commands us to love all people 1 Peter 4:8
5. Why in the koran is judgment based on a person's sincere repentance Sura 66:8-9 and righteous deeds? Sura 5:9; 24:26; 45:21-22; 64:7. The Bible states that salvation is a free gift of God to the person who trusts in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. It is not of any works. Eph. 2:8-9.

More later...