Evidence for God from Science

1stjohn0666 wrote:Ilike Vince Finnegan.

Of course you like him, John. You two both believe in the same heresy. You both deny Jesus is God.
Here's Mr. Finnegan plainly revealing his heresy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHYh-ZZ0 ... ata_player

Notice in the video, Mr. Finnegan said the Jesus didn't claim to be God. This link clearly shows that Jesus did in fact claim to be the same "I AM" that spoke to Moses. Read the article and see for yourself, that Jesus did claim to be God.
http://carm.org/religious-movements/isl ... s-i-am-god

John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 are not the same.
John 8:58 in the Greek is "EGO EIMI" which is "I am"
Exodus 3:14 in the Greek is "EGO EIMI HO ON" which is "the being"
HO ON is only indicative of the Father.
I did not have to watch the video, but I will.
Jesus never claimed to be the being of Exodus 3:14
Proper exegesis of the texts will reveal the falsehood that is being taught in "mainstream" Christianity.
Now off to the video
Now when I watched the video, there was nothing of these two texts. I assume you believe that it was not Yaweh the Father speaking to Moses, but Jesus the son of Yaweh. If you are truly trinitarian, as you claim. You are now implying that Jesus is Yaweh or that the son IS the Father.
Look at John 9:9 you have the blind man saying the exact same phrase "EGO EIMI" when we look at the strongs for John 9:9 why is there a bracket for the word "he" ... because it is accepted, even though the word "he" is missing from the text. It is a nice addition.

Now when I watched the video, there was nothing of these two texts. I assume you believe that it was not Yaweh the Father speaking to Moses, but Jesus the son of Yaweh. If you are truly trinitarian, as you claim. You are now implying that Jesus is Yaweh or that the son IS the Father.

HO ON is only indicative of the Father.

It seems PaulSacramento is correct. You seem to think God=The Father. Therefore you assume Yahweh=The Father as well. You still don't understand Christ's deity. There is ONE God. His name is not "God". "God" is who he is. One of God's Hebrew names, in english, is Yahweh. If Jesus is God, that means he is Yahweh. Because there is ONE God. Again, there aren't three Gods, as you seem to think the trinity is. You understand the trinity as God the Father is Yahweh, and God the Son is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is God in action. That's not the trinity, that would be some kind of polytheism.

John, in John 8:58, Jesus said, "before Abraham was I Am". Jesus was saying that before Abraham was, "I was", or "I existed". Now, for Jesus to say he existed before Abraham, that would mean Jesus claimed to have existed at least hundreds, or thousands of years before. So the Jews would understand Jesus was saying that he is equal to God, by his preexisting Abraham.

1stjohn0666 wrote:John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 are not the same.
John 8:58 in the Greek is "EGO EIMI" which is "I am"
Exodus 3:14 in the Greek is "EGO EIMI HO ON" which is "the being"
HO ON is only indicative of the Father.
I did not have to watch the video, but I will.
Jesus never claimed to be the being of Exodus 3:14
Proper exegesis of the texts will reveal the falsehood that is being taught in "mainstream" Christianity.
Now off to the video
Now when I watched the video, there was nothing of these two texts. I assume you believe that it was not Yaweh the Father speaking to Moses, but Jesus the son of Yaweh. If you are truly trinitarian, as you claim. You are now implying that Jesus is Yaweh or that the son IS the Father.
Look at John 9:9 you have the blind man saying the exact same phrase "EGO EIMI" when we look at the strongs for John 9:9 why is there a bracket for the word "he" ... because it is accepted, even though the word "he" is missing from the text. It is a nice addition.

Exodus 3:14 was written in ancient Hebrew form and not in common (old) Greek. It is pronounced as Eheyeh asher Eheyeh – I Am who I AM – I AM there were three Eheyeh (I AM)used used. This expresses that God is self-existent, is eternal/ unchangeable, the beginning and the End, incomprehensible; faithful and true to all his promises, unchangeable in his nature and his word. You have three Eheyeh used One God revealing that His oneness is unlike any concept of oneness mortal men can conceive of: Father (Eheyeh) Holy Spirit (Eheyeh) and Son (Eheyeh).

Now on the John 8 – notice context does not support your doctrine:

John 8:54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God';
Joh 8:55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know nHim, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
John 8:57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
John 8:59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.

The Preincarnate Jesus spoke to Moses as the third I AM mentioned in Exodus 3:14. He spoke to Moses in the Burning bush… He spoke to Abraham … Adam and Eve …

Please notice that in Rev 5:11, 12, 13, 14 all those in Heaven were worshiping Jesus.

Exodus 20:3,4,5 prevents worshiping / bowing anything other than God. Your POV teaches it is okay to worship a created being and thus is in violation of the first commandment. Why would God violate His own word that

Isa 43:10 … understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
Isa 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

Isa 43:11, "I, even I, am the LORD (YHWH), And besides Me there is no savior

Exodus 20:5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me”

Just these verses alone should indicate to you that your doctrine POV (Point of View) concerning Jesus being – a created exalted human being – is in great error and that holding such a view in God’s eye’s is Blasphemy.

You need to stop being a dictation machine mindless rambling your POV talking points and learn that the Lord reasons with people as Isa 1:18 says. You cited that you hated ditation machines but are yu not one yourself concerning your POV?

Every time God has spoken to US or revealed Himself to Us, He has done this through His Word, who is Christ.
When John said that no one has seen God or spoken to God and only The Son has revealed Him, this is what he means.
When God spoke to Moses in the "burning" Bush, It was THROUGH His Word.
So when the Word of God says " I AM", He is I AM ( JAH)and speaking for I AM (JAH).
When Jesus spoke those words in John 8, the crowd KNEW what he meant and reacted accordingly accusing Him of calling himself God.

This what you believe and is in no way a part of scripture, the Athanasian Creed:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. Notice that all of the other listings say "they are not 3 X's but 1 X" but when the persons are listed it is clear they are separate entities. The doctrine of said trinity, Yaweh is the Father, Jesus is the son, and the HS is just the HS. they are not 3 Gods but 1 God. I stand on "what the....." LOL
Back to the I am thing, The Greek writers knew for certainty that Jesus was not using the divine name, thus the difference in language.
"Before Abraham was (there was a prophecy) I am (the Messiah)" Jesus never claimed the title "God" or even claimed to be Yaweh.

1stjohn0666 wrote:This what you believe and is in no way a part of scripture, the Athanasian Creed:
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

John, who are you saying believes this? While there are parts I agree with, I don't agree with it in its entirety.

For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. Notice that all of the other listings say "they are not 3 X's but 1 X" but when the persons are listed it is clear they are separate entities. The doctrine of said trinity, Yaweh is the Father, Jesus is the son, and the HS is just the HS. they are not 3 Gods but 1 God. I stand on "what the....." LOL

John, after all the attempts to show you what the trinity is, and IS NOT, you still refuse to accept what we believe. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in three persons. God is one entity, not three. Yahweh is a Hebrew name for God. Yahweh is not the Hebrew name for only the Father. If you want to continue to believe that Jesus is not God, that's your choice. You'll have to live with that choice. But I'm not going to allow you to continue misrepresenting the trinity. We've posted enough information that you can understand what you're arguing against. At this point, I'm convinced that you either want to argue against the trinity, just to be argumentative. Or, you really haven't made any attempt to understand what you're arguing against. Or both. This is a warning to stop misrepresenting what the trinity is. For the last time, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

If you have any questions, or don't understand something, please ask.

The Athanasian Creed is the Creed that explains the trinity at it's best but also includes that one must believe it to be saved. An earlier Creed that does not say you have to believe the trinity to be saved is from 381 A.D. It has the trinity The Nicene Creed 381:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; he was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried, and the third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; from thence he shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end. And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
This also is "post biblical" and in no way is a part of scripture.

RickD wrote:

For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. Notice that all of the other listings say "they are not 3 X's but 1 X" but when the persons are listed it is clear they are separate entities. The doctrine of said trinity, Yaweh is the Father, Jesus is the son, and the HS is just the HS. they are not 3 Gods but 1 God. I stand on "what the....." LOL

John, after all the attempts to show you what the trinity is, and IS NOT, you still refuse to accept what we believe. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God in three persons. God is one entity, not three. Yahweh is a Hebrew name for God. Yahweh is not the Hebrew name for only the Father. If you want to continue to believe that Jesus is not God, that's your choice. You'll have to live with that choice. But I'm not going to allow you to continue misrepresenting the trinity. We've posted enough information that you can understand what you're arguing against. At this point, I'm convinced that you either want to argue against the trinity, just to be argumentative. Or, you really haven't made any attempt to understand what you're arguing against. Or both. This is a warning to stop misrepresenting what the trinity is. For the last time, read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

If you have any questions, or don't understand something, please ask.

It is good for the readers to realize that john666 is from a splinter group from The Way International. These groups make dictations machines out of their members who cannot reason independently.

They have no time to reason with the Lord as Isaiah 1:18 says. For them it is easier just to repeat what their leader say and like a dictation machine simply spout talking points. Even the creed cited is a dictation talking point. That is why john666 and all 666 member of the various Way Groups only use short answers (talking Points) to answer questions. There is no depths of intelligence at work. Just talking points vagueness.

They cannot see for example that to for God to make Jesus a created being who is worthy to be worshiped in heaven as Revelation 5:11, 12, 13, 14 says (Lamb of God) is in direct violation of God’s own Commandment – the First.

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me”

God making a created being to be worshiped is in violation of the above verse As well as in direct violation from the mouth of God spoken in Isa 42:8, Isa 48:11c – God will not share his Glory with another.

God keeps his word Isaiah 55 says and performs it - His counsel will stand.

He says in Isa 45:23 that every knee will bow to Him and yet in Philippians 2:10,11 every knee will bow to Christ Jesus (a created being is against everything God says about himself not sharing his glory, he being the only savior, violating the First commandment in heaven no less is, well, the lunacy of the dictation machine from those of The Way International.

Jesus did claim he was God, yet the way groups refuse to acknowledge this or even try to understand what Jesus meant when he said he and the Father are one (John 10:30, 31c), that he is the Beginning and End in the first chapter of Revelation, who had power to forgive sins in a manner that only God can do (Luke 5:20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25c), God who says he will never share his glory with another (Isa 42:8, Isa 48:11c), Jesus, who admitted being God when answering the High Priest (Matthew 26:64c – Isa 7:14, Isa 9:6, John 1:1, 2, 3, 14c).

God shares His Glory with NO ONE, nor will he permit another to be worshiped. People from the way type groups cannot reason nor see the role of the Messiah as being 100% God and 100% Man. They get this confused in their dictation machine approach. Can't see the forest for trees. Can’t see any of this. Instead they worship another jesus – a created being – that causes those in heaven worshiping Christ to break the first commandment and have God break his own rules, his own words, and promises too!

The Way groups come to their conclusions as simple minded dictation machines incapable of all and any reason. They can only answer by their cults’ talking points.

So John 666 how does it feel to teach doctrines that has God himself breaking the first commandment. If Jesus was merely a created being – then Jesus sinned by allowing himself to be worshiped as Lord no less - Matt 8:2, John 9:38, Rev 5:11, 12, 14c. God had to violate His own word in Isa 48:11c in order to share His own Glory.

Only way not to be in any Violation is the true Christian Doctrine of the (Jewish) Trinity. In fact, the entire Old Testament is the most Trinitarian book out there revealing the Echaud of God’s true self existing nature of Oneness – unlike any concept of oneness the human mind can fully grasp; thus, fulfilling Isa 46:5 NKJV, Isa 46:9 NKJV, Deut 33:26, and Jeremiah 10:6, 7, that there is truly none like Him.

You, John666 as the 666 implies, always seeks to reject how God's desire to reason with you (Isa 1:18c) in exchange for being the cults’ dictation machine. You asked inspired or dictated - it is you who are the dictation machine, the very thing you despise, you've become. You actually are rejecting the inspiration (reasoning) of the Bible for talking points proven by your short talking point quips

So John666 -- Answer me this – where in the bible does it say the Bride of Christ will be replaced, with a New Bride?

All we can do is warn you – you are in error and great danger! Actually learn to think for yourself and review everything everyone said in this post and look try to see from the bible’s POV and not what you group dictates thru scripture twisting to teach a jesus whose purpose is to have people to break the first commandment - even in heaven no less.

The Real Jesus Christ would never do this...
-
-
-

Yaweh is speaking in Isaiah 1:18 not Jesus. Jesus is worthy of worship as Gods agent. Heb 1:6 Yaweh commands the angels to worship Jesus "violating Yawehs own law by his command???? okay) Rev 5:12,13 have both the Father and Jesus receiving worship. Which is fine because Yaweh authorized it. Why is Philedelphia receiving worship in Rev 3:9? John 5:23 can explain these away with Yawehs words in the mouth of Jesus. Jesus only spoke what his Father said Deut 18:15-19. Paul does not apply Yaweh to Jesus in Ph 2:10,11. The "I am" thing again, this is what Jesus did to the Jews in context. He told them they were judging after the flesh, they would die in their sins, they were in bondage, they were servants of sin, they were out to kill him, they were spiritually deaf, their father was of the devil, they were not of God, they were dishonoring him, said they did not know God, and that they were lying. So the Jews thought by misunderstanding he accused them of immorality, had a devil, exalting himself above Abraham, and he saw Abraham. The Jews didn't want to stone him because he said "I am" but rather that he was claiming to be greater than Abraham. Jesus when addressing the crowd said "I am" (EGO EIMI) nothing happened there, or when he was captured. The Greek writers knew that Jesus was not saying the divine name "I am" (EGO EIMI HO ON) Exodus 3:14 or the language would be the same. Many people want John 8:58 to say "Before Abraham existed, I existed" but it does not. Back to John 1:1 and other parts of that binity teaching there where it lacks the 3rd member, so trinity is not present here. People want the texts to say "Jesus is Yaweh" which would not be the trinity, but the "oneness doctrine" (Jesus is the Father) and also that plainly Jesus is God. Deut 18 18 again. In the Greek "logos" is never and I mean never a person (FACT) Jesus is called God over in Heb 1:9 but it goes on with "your God" so again God has a God, if Jesus is God Almighty. Rev 1:8 yes Jesus and Yaweh both have the same title Alpha and Omega, but the Father is "which is, which was, and is to come, the Almighty. Jesus and Yaweh are both called "savior" but it is Yaweh who works "through" the Messiah because God said he would send someone to do his work on his behalf, Isaiah 19:20. We are saved "through" we pray "through" Jesus as he is the mediator between Yaweh and man. 1 Tim 2:5. "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." THROUGH 1 Cor 8:6

1stjohn0666 wrote:Yaweh is speaking in Isaiah 1:18 not Jesus. Jesus is worthy of worship as Gods agent. Heb 1:6 Yaweh commands the angels to worship Jesus "violating Yawehs own law by his command???? okay) Rev 5:12,13 have both the Father and Jesus receiving worship. Which is fine because Yaweh authorized it. Why is Philedelphia receiving worship in Rev 3:9? John 5:23 can explain these away with Yawehs words in the mouth of Jesus. Jesus only spoke what his Father said Deut 18:15-19. Paul does not apply Yaweh to Jesus in Ph 2:10,11. The "I am" thing again, this is what Jesus did to the Jews in context. He told them they were judging after the flesh, they would die in their sins, they were in bondage, they were servants of sin, they were out to kill him, they were spiritually deaf, their father was of the devil, they were not of God, they were dishonoring him, said they did not know God, and that they were lying. So the Jews thought by misunderstanding he accused them of immorality, had a devil, exalting himself above Abraham, and he saw Abraham. The Jews didn't want to stone him because he said "I am" but rather that he was claiming to be greater than Abraham. Jesus when addressing the crowd said "I am" (EGO EIMI) nothing happened there, or when he was captured. The Greek writers knew that Jesus was not saying the divine name "I am" (EGO EIMI HO ON) Exodus 3:14 or the language would be the same. Many people want John 8:58 to say "Before Abraham existed, I existed" but it does not. Back to John 1:1 and other parts of that binity teaching there where it lacks the 3rd member, so trinity is not present here. People want the texts to say "Jesus is Yaweh" which would not be the trinity, but the "oneness doctrine" (Jesus is the Father) and also that plainly Jesus is God. Deut 18 18 again. In the Greek "logos" is never and I mean never a person (FACT) Jesus is called God over in Heb 1:9 but it goes on with "your God" so again God has a God, if Jesus is God Almighty. Rev 1:8 yes Jesus and Yaweh both have the same title Alpha and Omega, but the Father is "which is, which was, and is to come, the Almighty. Jesus and Yaweh are both called "savior" but it is Yaweh who works "through" the Messiah because God said he would send someone to do his work on his behalf, Isaiah 19:20. We are saved "through" we pray "through" Jesus as he is the mediator between Yaweh and man. 1 Tim 2:5. "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." THROUGH 1 Cor 8:6

You do realize that you are justifying the trinity there, right?

1stjohn0666 wrote:Yaweh is speaking in Isaiah 1:18 not Jesus. Jesus is worthy of worship as Gods agent. Heb 1:6 Yaweh commands the angels to worship Jesus "violating Yawehs own law by his command???? okay) Rev 5:12,13 have both the Father and Jesus receiving worship. Which is fine because Yaweh authorized it. Why is Philedelphia receiving worship in Rev 3:9? John 5:23 can explain these away with Yawehs words in the mouth of Jesus. Jesus only spoke what his Father said Deut 18:15-19. Paul does not apply Yaweh to Jesus in Ph 2:10,11. The "I am" thing again, this is what Jesus did to the Jews in context. He told them they were judging after the flesh, they would die in their sins, they were in bondage, they were servants of sin, they were out to kill him, they were spiritually deaf, their father was of the devil, they were not of God, they were dishonoring him, said they did not know God, and that they were lying. So the Jews thought by misunderstanding he accused them of immorality, had a devil, exalting himself above Abraham, and he saw Abraham. The Jews didn't want to stone him because he said "I am" but rather that he was claiming to be greater than Abraham. Jesus when addressing the crowd said "I am" (EGO EIMI) nothing happened there, or when he was captured. The Greek writers knew that Jesus was not saying the divine name "I am" (EGO EIMI HO ON) Exodus 3:14 or the language would be the same. Many people want John 8:58 to say "Before Abraham existed, I existed" but it does not. Back to John 1:1 and other parts of that binity teaching there where it lacks the 3rd member, so trinity is not present here. People want the texts to say "Jesus is Yaweh" which would not be the trinity, but the "oneness doctrine" (Jesus is the Father) and also that plainly Jesus is God. Deut 18 18 again. In the Greek "logos" is never and I mean never a person (FACT) Jesus is called God over in Heb 1:9 but it goes on with "your God" so again God has a God, if Jesus is God Almighty. Rev 1:8 yes Jesus and Yaweh both have the same title Alpha and Omega, but the Father is "which is, which was, and is to come, the Almighty. Jesus and Yaweh are both called "savior" but it is Yaweh who works "through" the Messiah because God said he would send someone to do his work on his behalf, Isaiah 19:20. We are saved "through" we pray "through" Jesus as he is the mediator between Yaweh and man. 1 Tim 2:5. "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." THROUGH 1 Cor 8:6

PaulSacramento wrote:You do realize that you are justifying the trinity there, right?

PaulSacramento - I don't think he realizes how his own answer contradicts his belief system.

Isa 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

Rev 1:17, 18 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isa 43:10, 11 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Isa 45:21-23 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

Php 2:10-11 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Bible quotes from NKJV
-
-
-
Denying the Divine Trinity’s oneness would cause people, like john666, to promote a doctrine that justifies breaking the first commandment, because God says it is okay to break his law, even in heaven. Such is the manner that the way groups do, create a climate where people actually break the first commandment and justify themselves for doing so – amazing.

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me”

They cannot see for example that for God to make Jesus a created being who is worthy to be worshiped in heaven as Revelation 5:11, 12, 13, 14 says (Lamb of God) is in direct violation of God’s own Commandment – the First.

God making a created being to be worshiped is in violation of the above verse As well as in direct violation from the mouth of God spoken in Isa 42:8, Isa 48:11c – God will not share his Glory with another.

Actually, the JW's solved that pesky "worship" thing by the way.
The translated the word to mean "obedience" when it applies to Jesus and "worship" when it applies to God or Satan.