Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:20 am**

1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus

Jesus Himself does not agree with you, 1stjohnny, as it is written...

Rev 22:13 NIV "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Rev 22:14 NIV "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 NIV Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:16 NIV "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Isa 41:4 NASB "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'"

Isa 44:6 NIV "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 NIV "Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 NIV My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
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Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:44 am**

Sam1995 wrote:Are you actually being serious here? To try and tell me that john 14:13 does not provide a basis on which to pray to Jesus is absurd nonsense.

So when people pray to Jesus in acts 1:24, that's wrong is it? Go and have a look at the Greek transcript of Acts 1:24 and you will find that the Greek word used for Lord is Κύριε (Kyrie). The word means Jesus, I'm not going to go any further with this, I am actually annoyed that you believe what you replied with.

Also, in terms of being worshiped, of course Jesus is worthy of worship - I suggest you actually study some of Paul's writings, analyse your findings and then tell me your view. Jesus is worthy of worship, He's the one who took YOUR PLACE, He's the one that said to Pilot on the platform "take me, and let them have Barabbas," He's the one who was whipped, tortured, had a crown of thorns placed on His head and then nailed to a cross! Why? For YOUR sake! For your sin and for your opportunity to have eternal and everlasting life! I have no need to proceed any further with this discussion in that respect. There IS NO and NEVER WILL BE any argument against that.

SB

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:45 am**

Sam1995 wrote:Are you actually being serious here? To try and tell me that john 14:13 does not provide a basis on which to pray to Jesus is absurd nonsense.

So when people pray to Jesus in acts 1:24, that's wrong is it? Go and have a look at the Greek transcript of Acts 1:24 and you will find that the Greek word used for Lord is Κύριε (Kyrie). The word means Jesus, I'm not going to go any further with this, I am actually annoyed that you believe what you replied with.

Also, in terms of being worshiped, of course Jesus is worthy of worship - I suggest you actually study some of Paul's writings, analyse your findings and then tell me your view. Jesus is worthy of worship, He's the one who took YOUR PLACE, He's the one that said to Pilot on the platform "take me, and let them have Barabbas," He's the one who was whipped, tortured, had a crown of thorns placed on His head and then nailed to a cross! Why? For YOUR sake! For your sin and for your opportunity to have eternal and everlasting life! I have no need to proceed any further with this discussion in that respect. There IS NO and NEVER WILL BE any argument against that.

SB

You did not understand what I posted ....
There is NO argument that it IS CORRECT TO PRAY TO JESUS!!

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:51 am**

PaulSacramento wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus
So the writer of the GOJ is in error when He says that Jesus said that NO ONE has ever seen God, is that what you are saying?
Because of it was God that spoke to Abe and Moses directly, ie: they saw Him, then either the writer of John or Jesus is wrong.

They did not see his face "lest ye die" Moses asked to see the glory of God. It is written that God's hand hid the eyes of Moses and that Moses saw his feet. John and Jesus are not wrong in saying no man has seen God. If Jesus is God then all who looked upon Jesus must of died seeing the glorified son/God

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:58 am**

B. W. wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus
Jesus Himself does not agree with you, 1stjohnny, as it is written...

Rev 22:13 NIV "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Rev 22:14 NIV "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 NIV Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Rev 22:16 NIV "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

Isa 41:4 NASB "Who has performed and accomplished it, Calling forth the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He.'"

Isa 44:6 NIV "This is what the LORD says-- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 NIV "Listen to me, Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 NIV My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.
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By saying "I am the first and the last" by both YHWH and Jesus does not imply that they are the same person. YHWH says "there is no God beside me" It would only be reasonable that Jesus really meant what he said "that they may no YOU (not Jesus) the ONLY true God"
According to Jesus who is that "only true God"??
"For us there is one God, the Father"
According to Paul who is that "one God, the Father"??
According to Deut 6:4 YHWH our Elohim is one YHWH. This is the Creed of Jesus!! There is no divine code to figure out that one does not really mean one.

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:20 am**

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus
So the writer of the GOJ is in error when He says that Jesus said that NO ONE has ever seen God, is that what you are saying?
Because of it was God that spoke to Abe and Moses directly, ie: they saw Him, then either the writer of John or Jesus is wrong.
They did not see his face "lest ye die" Moses asked to see the glory of God. It is written that God's hand hid the eyes of Moses and that Moses saw his feet. John and Jesus are not wrong in saying no man has seen God. If Jesus is God then all who looked upon Jesus must of died seeing the glorified son/God

Really? Abe never saw God? Then who did he has the discussion/bargaining with about Soddom?
You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept that Paul states in Colossians and Philipians:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

and

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:58 am**

Abe seen God but in a "veiled" sense. That veil was to be torn in two after what Jesus did for all of us. Everyone who seen God in the OT describes seeing Gods hands, feet, loins, back parts (butt) LOL, but never seen Gods face!!

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:11 pm**

1stjohn0666 wrote:Abe seen God but in a "veiled" sense. That veil was to be torn in two after what Jesus did for all of us. Everyone who seen God in the OT describes seeing Gods hands, feet, loins, back parts (butt) LOL, but never seen Gods face!!

God sat and ate with Abe and His wife.
Who was that?

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:34 pm**

I searched around and found a nice website (I don't agree with all of their doctrine) http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/genesis-18-1-2
I do agree as I did state earlier that my beliefs "veiled" are identical to the website.
To answer the question, it was not Jesus or "the pre-incarnate Christ" but was YHWH.
Jesus existed before existing......very odd language..

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:56 pm**

1stjohn0666 wrote:I searched around and found a nice website (I don't agree with all of their doctrine) http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/genesis-18-1-2
I do agree as I did state earlier that my beliefs "veiled" are identical to the website.
To answer the question, it was not Jesus or "the pre-incarnate Christ" but was YHWH.
Jesus existed before existing......very odd language..

[Exodus 33:20 NIV]

SB

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:27 pm**

Our founding "orthodoxy" (Early church fathers) would be pleased with you!!

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:38 pm**

33:20 But he added, “You cannot see my face, for no one can 57 see me and live.” 58

57 tn In view of the use of the verb “can, be able to” in the first clause, this imperfect tense is given a potential nuance.
58 tn Gesenius notes that sometimes a negative statement takes the place of a conditional clause; here it is equal to “if a man sees me he does not live” (GKC 498 §159.gg). The other passages that teach this are Gen 32:30; Deut 4:33, 5:24, 26; Judg 6:22, 13:22, and Isa 6:5.

https://net.bible.org

Posted: **Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:56 pm**

1stjohn0666 wrote:33:20 But he added, “You cannot see my face, for no one can 57 see me and live.” 58

57 tn In view of the use of the verb “can, be able to” in the first clause, this imperfect tense is given a potential nuance.
58 tn Gesenius notes that sometimes a negative statement takes the place of a conditional clause; here it is equal to “if a man sees me he does not live” (GKC 498 §159.gg). The other passages that teach this are Gen 32:30; Deut 4:33, 5:24, 26; Judg 6:22, 13:22, and Isa 6:5.

https://net.bible.org

Exodus 24 comes before chapter 33...

Please note:

Exodus 24:9, 10, 11, 12. "Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank." NKJV

Moses desired to see the full glory of the Lord (Exodus 33:18c) Moses desired to see God in his full complete majestic self. As noted above, people did see God but not all of God - they only were permitted to see one of the presences of the Lord at a time, not his whole Presence (Panyim) all at once. This was for their protection. The the Lord said the following to Moses about seeing all of him in full majesty:

Exodus 33:20, 23, "But He said, "You cannot see My face (Panyim - Presence(s), for no man can see Me and live!" 23 "Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face ((Panyim - Presence(s) shall not be seen." NASB

I placed the Hebrew plural Noun - Panyim right after the word face in text. Panyim means presence's' / the entire complexity of a person / It also can mean Face but not in the sense the westerners think of a face as in a picture but more as the window that reveals all a person is - all emotion, thought, including looks of acceptance , rejection, disdain, pleasure, etc that one's face reveal about the entire person at any given moment.

Moses desired to see all of God - his entire presences in His one presence. Moses saw three panyim as did Abraham -Isaac - Jacob did and others later would. God is self existing and His presences are also self existing as well too. To put it more in a biblical manner that the reader might explore on his/her own - You Have the self existing Will, the self existing Word, self existing Power of God that make up the Essence of God's Person. Due the God's self existing nature from the Will, proceeds the Word and Power like Arms/Hands and each able to self exist because it is God's nature to be self existing. The Living Word of God and the Living Power of God - each live self existing...expressing the Will of the Will. That is how Jesus explained things in the gospels and in John specifically.

Moses saw the Word - Messenger YHWH in the burning bush then three distinct manifestations of God's Panyim very often - as so noted in Deut 33:2 as an example of this, "He said: "The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes. " NASB

Johnny666 - you do not understand God's simplicity concerning his self existing Nature and try to lead others away from God into cultic group think about a different Jesus that cannot save.

Isaiah 2:22 NIV, Stop trusting in mere humans, who have but a breath in their nostrils. Why hold them in esteem?

Jer 17:5 NIV This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.
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Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:45 am**

Gen 32 comes before Exo 24

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:26 am**

1stjohn0666 wrote:
Sam1995 wrote:Are you actually being serious here? To try and tell me that john 14:13 does not provide a basis on which to pray to Jesus is absurd nonsense.

So when people pray to Jesus in acts 1:24, that's wrong is it? Go and have a look at the Greek transcript of Acts 1:24 and you will find that the Greek word used for Lord is Κύριε (Kyrie). The word means Jesus, I'm not going to go any further with this, I am actually annoyed that you believe what you replied with.

Also, in terms of being worshiped, of course Jesus is worthy of worship - I suggest you actually study some of Paul's writings, analyse your findings and then tell me your view. Jesus is worthy of worship, He's the one who took YOUR PLACE, He's the one that said to Pilot on the platform "take me, and let them have Barabbas," He's the one who was whipped, tortured, had a crown of thorns placed on His head and then nailed to a cross! Why? For YOUR sake! For your sin and for your opportunity to have eternal and everlasting life! I have no need to proceed any further with this discussion in that respect. There IS NO and NEVER WILL BE any argument against that.

SB
You did not understand what I posted ....
There is NO argument that it IS CORRECT TO PRAY TO JESUS!!

I believe that Jesus is Lord of all. If I did not believe that He was God incarnate, then it would be logical to assume that a Christian should not pray to Jesus as He would not be able to do anything for them. However, I do believe that Jesus was God incarnate as the Bible states, and firstly, on that basis I now do see a reason as to why we can pray to Him.

When Jesus was alive and walked the earth, many people petitioned Him and asked Him for things. By saying that we cannot pray to Jesus, you are effectively saying that it was ok for people to ask Him to perform miracles such as healing and prophecy whilst He was alive, however now that He is not walking the earth at the moment, it is no longer ok to petition Jesus and ask Him for things according to the will of God. Do you believe that Jesus is dead?

I think also that for you to say that Jesus should not be prayed to is to contradict New Testament scripture, read the book of Acts and then tell me there is no argument for praying to Jesus.

SB

Evidence for God from Science

Jehovah witnesses

Re: Jehovah witnesses

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

Re: Jehovah witnesses

Re: Jehovah witnesses

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Re: Jehovah witnesses