Evidence for God from Science

Well, if we are honest, anything that is not explicit in scripture is speculation.

neo-x wrote:

There is no passage that states explicitly that Jesus's apostles were baptized, yes.
BUT, can someone who is not baptized, baptize?

Sure. Was John the baptist, baptized?

Is Madagascar mentioned in the Bible? If not then I'm free to conclude it doesn't exist.

Let's see what JTB said about baptism. Obviously, he was water baptizing.

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

First, John speaks of his baptism. It was a baptism of repentance, which means he was following his mission to prepare the way for Messiah. Preparing the minds of Israel to receive Messiah.
John also mentions a promise of a new baptism. The promise was to apostate Israel. Did Jesus fufill this promise? If so, when? I would say that Acts 2 is as good a bet as any.
Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you."
Acts 2:32,33 We are all witnesses of this. Jesus has been given a place of honor at the right hand of God. He has received the Holy Spirit from the Father. This is what God had promised. It is Jesus who has poured out what you now see and hear.
Then Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized. About 3,000 people joined the believers that day.

Now, were the 3,000 water baptized THAT day? I suppose it is possible. It is also possible that they were baptized over many days. But this much is sure, they were all added unto the believers THAT day. Water baptism had a very real meaning for the nation of Israel, and I believe it was a very important ordinance for joining with Kingdom promises commissioned to the 12. The audience in Acts was very much the Jewish diasporia.

Regarding Peter's sermon to the crowd. “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;"
What was the context of Peter's sermon? What were they to repent from? Their unbelief and rejection of the Messiahship of Jesus. Acts 2:36. Read Peter's sermon if there is any doubt of what he is admonishing the crowd to believe.

unfortunately byb, i can see madagascar when i want to, but unless you have scripture support or cctv footage of the disciples being baptized, im afraid your claim here is speculation.

Neo,
As one who does not see water baptism as essential for regeneration, I see no reason to speculate that the 12 weren't water baptized. I don't think it strengthens the argument. In one sense I would say that water baptism was essential in the Kingdom Gospel that Jesus commissioned the 12 to begin.

RickD wrote:

1over137 wrote:Has someone already mentioned Acts 2?

"37 Now when they heard this, they were [aj]pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “[ak]Brethren, [al]what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, “[am]Be saved from this perverse generation!” 41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [an]souls. 42 They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and [ao]to prayer."

Hana, The disagreement lies here:

1)“Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
Does this mean water baptism?
Wasn't water baptism supposed to be in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost(Spirit)?

2) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Is this "gift" of the Holy Spirit, a gift that was given specially to the apostles to perform their duties?

3) So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand [an]souls. Were the "about three thousand souls" added because they had received his word, or because they were baptized in water? And what were these souls added to?

All I really know now Rick is Matthew 28:19 and also that we should obey Christ. I will probably say no more to the topic.

Sam1995 wrote:

1over137 wrote:Sam, what do you think of John 3:36?

Really good question! I didn't mention it in my last response because I wanted to spend some more time thinking about it, just so I didn't give you a response that wasn't worth reading in the first place!

I sat thinking about it and wasn't getting anywhere, because it really did appear to me on the face of it to mean that we have to obey Biblical commands such as baptism in water, which then seemed contradictory to the fact that we are saved by grace through faith and not by grace AND baptism in water.

So, I resorted to the Greek scripture! Here is the greek of John 3:36 and beneath it is the literal English translation from that Greek.

ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ’ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ’ αὐτόν.

"He that believes on the son has life eternal; he that moreover is not subject to the Son, not will see life, but the wrath - of God abides on him."

Now, this completely turned my mindset upside down on the meaning of this verse, because it now appears that John 3:36 actually refers to whether or not we have given our lives to Jesus rather than merely following Biblical commands, so this verse does not actually contradict anywhere else in scripture. It appears to mean that if we accept Jesus as savior, we shall inherit eternal life, but if we do not accept Jesus (not subject to the Son), then we shall face the wrath of God in His judgement, which makes sense as [Hebrews 10:31 NIV] makes the point that it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, the context of that verse referring to those who have not given their lives to God.

SB

I think that expression 'subject to the Son' means more than just accepting Him as Saviour. I think we should try to find what pleases Him, we should search and study Scriptures to know what pleases Him. It's not just saying: Oh, yes, Christ died on the cross and is my Savior. It's like saying: Christ, you died for us on the cross, suffered for us, I know my sins are not pleasant to you and I will try my best to refrain from them. You are my idol. I want to follow you and keep your commands.

1over137 wrote:

Sam1995 wrote:

1over137 wrote:Sam, what do you think of John 3:36?

Really good question! I didn't mention it in my last response because I wanted to spend some more time thinking about it, just so I didn't give you a response that wasn't worth reading in the first place!

I sat thinking about it and wasn't getting anywhere, because it really did appear to me on the face of it to mean that we have to obey Biblical commands such as baptism in water, which then seemed contradictory to the fact that we are saved by grace through faith and not by grace AND baptism in water.

So, I resorted to the Greek scripture! Here is the greek of John 3:36 and beneath it is the literal English translation from that Greek.

ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ’ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ’ αὐτόν.

"He that believes on the son has life eternal; he that moreover is not subject to the Son, not will see life, but the wrath - of God abides on him."

Now, this completely turned my mindset upside down on the meaning of this verse, because it now appears that John 3:36 actually refers to whether or not we have given our lives to Jesus rather than merely following Biblical commands, so this verse does not actually contradict anywhere else in scripture. It appears to mean that if we accept Jesus as savior, we shall inherit eternal life, but if we do not accept Jesus (not subject to the Son), then we shall face the wrath of God in His judgement, which makes sense as [Hebrews 10:31 NIV] makes the point that it is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, the context of that verse referring to those who have not given their lives to God.

SB

I think that expression 'subject to the Son' means more than just accepting Him as Saviour. I think we should try to find what pleases Him, we should search and study Scriptures to know what pleases Him. It's not just saying: Oh, yes, Christ died on the cross and is my Savior. It's like saying: Christ, you died for us on the cross, suffered for us, I know my sins are not pleasant to you and I will try my best to refrain from them. You are my idol. I want to follow you and keep your commands.

Yes, but that does not make searching and finding what pleases Him as a requirement to be saved which is what we were talking about in the first place. We are saved by grace, and grace is undeserving, so it is lavished upon us because normally we don't do what pleases God anyway. Our sins outweigh our good deeds to a huge extent.

SB

This entire notion of completely disconnecting what we do (so-called works) from what God does (by grace) is really utterly foreign to me. And I'm not talking about just from the perspective of being Roman Catholic. It is perhaps due to my eastern upbringing (theologically that is), I don't know.

To me there is no separation from God's grace. Anything I do is done BECAUSE of God's grace, not in spite of it. This includes baptism (God does the baptizing), repentance (God does the forgiving), the Lord's supper (well, I won't touch that one ), etc, etc. There is nothing I do I can boast about since it is not me who is the source of this 'work', it is God and His sanctifying grace.

Just my 2 cents (or to add fuel to the fire, whatever).

Byblos wrote:This entire notion of completely disconnecting what we do (so-called works) from what God does (by grace) is really utterly foreign to me. And I'm not talking about just from the perspective of being Roman Catholic. It is perhaps due to my eastern upbringing (theologically that is), I don't know.

To me there is no separation from God's grace. Anything I do is done BECAUSE of God's grace, not in spite of it. This includes baptism (God does the baptizing), repentance (God does the forgiving), the Lord's supper (well, I won't touch that one ), etc, etc. There is nothing I do I can boast about since it is not me who is the source of this 'work', it is God and His sanctifying grace.

Just my 2 cents (or to add fuel to the fire, whatever).

Not all of the acts that we commit are by the grace of God, but it does differ greatly between different people.

SB

All I really know now Rick is Matthew 28:19 and also that we should obey Christ. I will probably say no more to the topic

To put it candidly, I doubt you take such an approach with Physics.

For example I could say that you need to sell all you have and give to the poor. Afterall, Jesus said so and we should obey Christ. Jesus gave YOU an apostle. His name is Paul and He was hand picked by Jesus Christ to teach us how to rightly divide the word of truth.

1over137 wrote:I think that expression 'subject to the Son' means more than just accepting Him as Saviour. I think we should try to find what pleases Him, we should search and study Scriptures to know what pleases Him. It's not just saying: Oh, yes, Christ died on the cross and is my Savior. It's like saying: Christ, you died for us on the cross, suffered for us, I know my sins are not pleasant to you and I will try my best to refrain from them. You are my idol. I want to follow you and keep your commands.

There are a lot of things a believer SHOULD do. That isn't the question. Paul goes to great lengths to instruct the believer on what they SHOULD do. The question is baptism and what is REQUIRED for one to be saved. "Sirs what MUST I do to be saved?"
If you are like me, then you find yourself often failing to do the things you know you ought to do. Not so much that you are doing bad things. Have you ever thought your prayer life was lacking? Your time of study on God's Word? Taking time to serve others? Putting the needs of others first? If you are honest, then you know that of course you often fail to live up to who your are In Christ. But that doesn't change that you are in Christ. You were baptized into Christ the moment you placed your trust in Him. You were sealed with a promise, and you have every spiritual blessing in heavenly places. You are a full fledged citizen of heaven with all the rights and priveleges. And just as there was NOTHING you could do to earn this, there is nothing you can do to revoke your sonship (or daughtership if you will). I am quite convinced in my many years of ministry that if you ever want to see people do what they ought to do as believers, is wake up each day fully trusting this and nothing else. Not church traditions. Not religion. Not water baptism or any other ordinance. But trusting exclusively in the work of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. If you think your salvation is contingent in any form or fashion on your performance then you are the victim of religion, and you need to be set free.

Neo,
As one who does not see water baptism as essential for regeneration, I see no reason to speculate that the 12 weren't water baptized. I don't think it strengthens the argument. In one sense I would say that water baptism was essential in the Kingdom Gospel that Jesus commissioned the 12 to begin

I understand your point J. And agree that it does not strengthen the real argument in question here. This was an off-shoot, but I guess it was important in way to the whole, you cant be saved if you are not baptized, thing. I wanted to show that you can't really say that the Disciples were baptized. In one sense it does support my argument because we can't simply doubt that if indeed the disciples were never baptized then they were never saved.

Sam, jlay: The question is whether one truly believes in Christ with his heart. There are terms like saving faith and dead faith. If you wish we can discuss that in new thread.

I do not feel like a victim of religion. I myself read Bible and see there what pleases Christ. Why not to try to do what pleases God? What kind of relationship one does have with Christ if he thinks he can ignore Christ's wishes?

Sam1995 wrote:Not all of the acts that we commit are by the grace of God

Of course not, only the good ones.

1over137 wrote:Sam, jlay: The question is whether one truly believes in Christ with his heart. There are terms like saving faith and dead faith. If you wish we can discuss that in new thread.

I do not feel like a victim of religion. I myself read Bible and see there what pleases Christ. Why not to try to do what pleases God? What kind of relationship one does have with Christ if he thinks he can ignore Christ's wishes?

1over,
You might be the first person I've ever met who isn't a victim of religion.
What pleases God first and foremost is believing on Christ. John 6:29
Believe that Paul is your hand picked apostle. There are many things in Jesus' earthly ministry that are exclusive to the plans and promises for Israel.
The real confusion is what is the believer "required" to do, TODAY. Is everything Jesus said in the four Gospels for us to practice today? This was the hardest thing for me in breaking from religion. I fought against this tooth and nail in my spirit. "if Jesus said it, I should do it." I was once a pro-Sabbath, pro-tithing, pro-baptism, etc. After spending years examining my faith and asking why, I found that many of my beliefs were not biblical but religious. They were based on traditions.

Sam, jlay: The question is whether one truly believes in Christ with his heart. There are terms like saving faith and dead faith. If you wish we can discuss that in new thread.

James is the only place you will read that. James is written to BELIEVERS. (Jewish believers to be specific.) Saved believers can have a dead faith. You, like so many conflate James' warnings to eternal life or condemnation. I absolutely believe that a believer should practice a living faith. It is the only way they can produce the fruit of the spirit.
Faith is trust. You will never hear me say, 'accept Christ.' In terms of the "heart" (Kardia), that is the only place one can really "trust." I can have information, and even accept that the information is correct. But, faith in Christ is saying, I'm trusting the life and work of Christ to save me, and nothing else. Not religion, traditions, or joining the right church.
I'll give you an example regarding baptism. The Apostolic church says that you MUST be water baptized (fully immersed) and that the ceremony must be carried out by one of their church officials. If not, then regardless of what you have believed, you will burn in Hell. So, where is the faith? In their religious offices and ordinances. Now, their position is obvious, and obviously wrong IMO, but many other groups hold some such position on water baptism, some more subtle than others.
I was water baptized at 12. But, I entered those waters already redeemed, cleansed and justified before God. Why? Because I took God at His word, that Jesus Christ was Lord and Savior, and I trusted in that and that alone to save me. Today, Jesus is building the church the body of Christ, and it is a heavenly people. Israel is(was) the earthly Kingdom. The only one, ever, was the nation of Israel, and it's my belief that God will restore His earthly Kingdom. But that is not the program He is working through today. There is no earthly government (at this time) in Jerusalem, or Vatican City. No hierarchy of power. It is all religious corruption in one form or fashion. Anyone trying to get you to 'join' a church or denomination. Many want to take the commission given to the 12, and attempt to employ that for themselves. They were given a commission for the earthly Kingdom, Isreal. If you want to follow that fine. But you might as well take your bible and rip out Romans through Philemon.