Problem of evil

[MAGSolo]

Mag, I tend to think God doesn't use prophets anymore because we have the bible now. Mag, God promises you that if you really want to know Him, He will speak to you through scripture. God desires all men to come into a relationship with Him, and He primarily uses scripture to speak to us. If you really are sincere in seeking God, He knows your intentions. Read the bible and ask God to make you open to receiving what He has written for you there.

You cant honestly think that the bible is an adequate substitute for prophets do you? There are books and websites dedicated to pointing out the tons of contradictions, inaccuracies, a basic logical problems within the bible. How can you think the bible would be more compelling to a skeptic/doubter than a prophet or disciple that could walk up to a deaf or blind person and tell them to be healed in the name of the Lord? The bible is useless as a tool of conversion because skeptics will be doubtful of its authenticity to begin with. The bible basically has no credibility amongs atheist, its just an ancient book with no more credibility than the Quran or ancient tales of Norse or Greek gods so how can you convince a doubter to believe anything in it?

[RickD]

MAGSolo wrote:
You cant honestly think that the bible is an adequate substitute for prophets do you?

I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the bible points us to Christ, in much the same way the ot prophets pointed to Christ.

There are books and websites dedicated to pointing out the tons of contradictions, inaccuracies, a basic logical problems within the bible.

Mag, none of those arguments hold water.

. How can you think the bible would be more compelling to a skeptic/doubter than a prophet or disciple that could walk up to a deaf or blind person and tell them to be healed in the name of the Lord?

If there were unbelievers even when Christ Himself was performing miracles in their very presence, why do you think everyone would believe if prophets were among us today?

The bible is useless as a tool of conversion because skeptics will be doubtful of its authenticity to begin with.

Mag, the bible is the very written word of the living God. The message within the bible is powerful.
Hebrews 4:12:

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

The bible basically has no credibility amongs atheist, its just an ancient book with no more credibility than the Quran or ancient tales of Norse or Greek gods so how can you convince a doubter to believe anything in it?

Mag, I can't convince anyone. What I'm saying is that if one is truly open to God's truth, God will use His written word to convince you. If you are willing to be made receptive to God, he will use whatever little amount of faith you have, to speak to you through the bible. All you need to do is ask God to make you willing to see the truth, and read the bible. God will do the rest.

[1over137]

Mag, since all prophets were pointing to Christ, why not to take the four gospels and read there about Jesus and his wisdom and wise words.

[MAGSolo]

lover I have read the 4 gospels more times than I can count. They are actually my favorite books in the entire bible. The problem is that once I thought I was reading about an actual person and reading his actual words but now I dont feel that to be the case. Also the purpose of the prophets or apostles was to guide people toward Jesus. Why should that stop just because we have the bible? I say again that in this era of technology and science, people need more than a book thats hundreds of years old and filled with contradictions. The bible may have been great during the middle ages when most people probably couldnt read and superstition was a way of life, but in this day and age where people are not as superstitious as they were in those days, the bible is nothing but a relic of ancient and ignorant times. If God exists, he needs a better way to lead people to him now.

[RickD]

MAGSolo wrote:
Also the purpose of the prophets or apostles was to guide people toward Jesus. Why should that stop just because we have the bible?

It hasn't stopped. The bible is still there with the stories of the prophets that still point people to their need for Christ.

I say again that in this era of technology and science, people need more than a book thats hundreds of years old and filled with contradictions.

Mag, if you have specific things that you believe are contradictions in the bible, you can post a specific question about them. But only if you are genuinely open to listening to the reason why they are really NOT contradictions, when someone shows you they're not contradictions.
And, do you claim to know better than God, how He should reach out to people?

[MAGSolo]

I feel like we are getting off topic quite a bit here. We should get back to discussing the problem of evil

[MAGSolo]

God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it.

Yeah, that is a heck of a statement...

God had no problem with having entire nations wiped out on several occassions down to children and infants because their societies were evil. What is the big deal about him killing someone that is about to murder or rape or commit some other terrible atrocity?

I think you need to read what you wrote there.
If your co-worker dropped dead right next to you right now, or your father or mother or sister or son, what would you think?
If God decided to kill anyone BEFORE they committed an "evil act" ( which according to you is an act this is not good, ie: an act that will harm another), God would have to kill them before of course because after doesn't make sense for an all-knowing being, right?
SO God kills some one you love because He knows that person WILL commit and act of evil.
That person has NOT done it yet but has been tried and executed for something he/she will do.
And you are OK with this?
You are ok with God killing people BEFORE they commit an act of evil even though YOU have EVIDENCE that they WOULD do such?
You are OK wit that?

Yes Id be fine with it. Also killing them isnt the only option. Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of early Christians before Jesus actually came to him and spoke to him and he converted (allegedly according to the bible). He still had free will to do what he wanted but Jesus made it much easier for him to choose by actually physically talking to him according to the bible. So to say that God doesnt do anything because of free will is a bunk argument. God can very easily intervene without removing free will. If God were to talk to a person before they were about to commit an evil act I think a lot of them would not do it. Why does he not do so then if he did it to Saul? Why doesnt God go to people that are truly evil and ask them why they are doing these things and tell them that he doesnt like when they do such things. How can God be good and make literally no effort to prevent evil when all he would have to do in most cases would be to speak to that person, come to them in a dream or something and tell them and ask them not to do these things. The person still has the free will to ignore him and do what they want, but I guarantee that if God literally came and talked to evil people like he allegedly did to Saul, there would be a lot less evil in the world. Besides this God could talk to people that are in danger of suffering evil at the hands of another to give them some way to either avoid that danger or protect themselves.

I once read a true story about a free black man named from New York named Solomon Northrup who went out with a couple of white guys to DC to play his fiddle at a circus or something of that nature. While in DC he is drugged, kidnapped, viciously beaten and sold into slavery where he endures ten years of brutal slavery. This is a true story told from Solomons perspective and in it he remarks that no angel of mercy came to him to warn him of the perils that awaited him if he went to DC with these white men. So God knew that he was going to be kidnapped and sold into ten years of brutal slavery but because Solomon had free will to go to DC if thats what he wanted to do, then God just let him do it with no warning whatsoever about what awaited him. Where is the goodness, love, and mercy in that? That is the problem with evil. If the Christian God existed, there is lots he could do to prevent evil, but he doesnt.

[PaulSacramento]

How is it that Christians never seem to think of these things. Why is it always one or the other with you guys. There is absolutely nothing God can do about evil without meddling with free will

What an arrogant thing to say, especially since Christians, far more than any of the Abrahamic faiths, have debated the problem of evil for centuries.

Yes Id be fine with it. Also killing them isnt the only option. Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor of early Christians before Jesus actually came to him and spoke to him and he converted (allegedly according to the bible). He still had free will to do what he wanted but Jesus made it much easier for him to choose by actually physically talking to him according to the bible. So to say that God doesnt do anything because of free will is a bunk argument. God can very easily intervene without removing free will. If God were to talk to a person before they were about to commit an evil act I think a lot of them would not do it. Why does he not do so then if he did it to Saul? Why doesnt God go to people that are truly evil and ask them why they are doing these things and tell them that he doesnt like when they do such things. How can God be good and make literally no effort to prevent evil when all he would have to do in most cases would be to speak to that person, come to them in a dream or something and tell them and ask them not to do these things. The person still has the free will to ignore him and do what they want, but I guarantee that if God literally came and talked to evil people like he allegedly did to Saul, there would be a lot less evil in the world. Besides this God could talk to people that are in danger of suffering evil at the hands of another to give them some way to either avoid that danger or protect themselves.

I once read a true story about a free black man named from New York named Solomon Northrup who went out with a couple of white guys to DC to play his fiddle at a circus or something of that nature. While in DC he is drugged, kidnapped, viciously beaten and sold into slavery where he endures ten years of brutal slavery. This is a true story told from Solomons perspective and in it he remarks that no angel of mercy came to him to warn him of the perils that awaited him if he went to DC with these white men. So God knew that he was going to be kidnapped and sold into ten years of brutal slavery but because Solomon had free will to go to DC if thats what he wanted to do, then God just let him do it with no warning whatsoever about what awaited him. Where is the goodness, love, and mercy in that? That is the problem with evil. If the Christian God existed, there is lots he could do to prevent evil, but he doesnt.

So, since YOU would be fine with it, then that makes it OK ?
Will, I for one would NOT be fine with people dropping dead around me without me knowing why.
But since you seem to think that, as long as YOU are ok with how god acts then its ok, what makes the person who thinks that its ok how god acts NOW, not ok?

God intervention stopped after He sent his Son, up until the Last days.
But I am sure you will be fine with the last days because, according to you, you are "ok" with Divine punishment, even for those that have not done anything wrong yet.

I think your issue is that, as a human, you can't foresee any possible good coming from an act that you see as evil, is that correct to say?

[MAGSolo]

What an arrogant thing to say, especially since Christians, far more than any of the Abrahamic faiths, have debated the problem of evil for centuries.

Its not arrogant, its true. Christians always say that free will is the reason that God allows evil as if there is nothing God could do to prevent evil without meddling with free will. Are you saying there is something God could do?

Will, I for one would NOT be fine with people dropping dead around me without me knowing why.

okay fine, like I said, its not the only way God could do something. Let me ask you this, what would have been better, for the terrorists that committed the 9/11 attacks to be killed before they killed thousands of American citizens or was it better for them to stay alive and be able to carry out the attacks and have thousands of people die a horrible death?

But since you seem to think that, as long as YOU are ok with how god acts then its ok, what makes the person who thinks that its ok how god acts NOW, not ok?

Its not okay because it permits thousands of people to suffer and die at the hands of evil people on a daily basis. Im not okay with innocent people suffering evil so any act by God that allows this to occur is not okay to me. I dont like people being raped, and killed, Gods acts allow this to occur, so Gods acts are not okay with me. But more precisely let me say that the fact that these things occur daily is very strong evidence to me that the kind, loving, benevolent, good God of the bible does not exist.

God intervention stopped after He sent his Son, up until the Last days

God coming to Saul occurred after he had sent his son.

But I am sure you will be fine with the last days because, according to you, you are "ok" with Divine punishment, even for those that have not done anything wrong yet.

Yes I am fine with the last days. They couldnt come soon enough as overall this is a pretty terrible planet we live on filled with evil, pain, and suffering. And yes I am fine with divine punishment. You characterizing it as people that havent done anything wrong yet is a complete mischaracterization of what I said. I did not say that God should kill people who havent done anything wrong yet. I said he should kill people that are going to commit an evil act. If I am going to come to your house, shoot you, tie your wife up and rape her and then chop her head of with an axe, then yes, God should kill me before I do that. I am not talking about people who havent done anything wrong yet, I am talking about people that God knows are about to commit a vile act against another person. Im not talking about people that are thinking about doing something, Im talking about people in the act, like I am at your door with my gun and butcher knife. Im out there in the dark waiting for you to walk to your car so that I can shoot you for the $30 dollars in your pocket. Im out there waiting for you to be walking home late at night so I can rape you and then stab you 30 times. This is what I am talking about so dont try to make it sound like im talking about God killing innocent people by saying people that havent done anything yet. I am talking about people in the act of committing evil but before they have committed the evil act. Im not talking about killing a person that is going to rape a female next week, Im talking about killing them in the very moment they are about to commit that act.

I think your issue is that, as a human, you can't foresee any possible good coming from an act that you see as evil, is that correct to say?

Let me ask you a very specific question. I posted earlier about the baby that was cooked to death in the oven by his mother. What good do you think came of that?
Here http://www.wral.com/more-charges-filed- ... /12101787/
A five year old girl is sold by her mother to a guy that uses her for his sexual fulfillment and then kills her. five years old and she was sold by her mother, raped, and killed. Tell me what good you think came out of that?

[PaulSacramento]

Let me ask you a very specific question. I posted earlier about the baby that was cooked to death in the oven by his mother. What good do you think came of that?
Here http://www.wral.com/more-charges-filed- ... /12101787/
A five year old girl is sold by her mother to a guy that uses her for his sexual fulfillment and then kills her. five years old and she was sold by her mother, raped, and killed. Tell me what good you think came out of that?

Those are very hard questions to answer and, of course, you know that and that is why you picked such horrific examples.
And rightly so because, like you, I am very aware of the world we live in, perhaps more so.
If I were to tell you of the atrocities I saw in my time in Bosnia, well...
You answer would have been to Kill those people before they did that.
There are no guarantees that God coming to them would make them stop it, and the only 100% sure way to stop anyone from committing a crime is to kill them before they do it, any other way leaves open the possibility of it happening, no matter how small.
So, I myself have asked God WHY, oh WHY does He permit such things to happen, why does he NOT interfere ( because that is exactly what He would be doing, interfering in the order of things).
He used to, I mean the flood, the Egyptians, He killed people all the time right?
Of course those are the things He gets accused of being a genocidal murder for, so...
But WHY listen to us? why listen to our accusations of Him? Why not ignore Us and rule over us with His "iron will" and kill those that are to commit such things? heck, why not keep them from being born?
Look at the case of the mother that cooked her baby, God could have prevented the birth of the baby, heck God could have prevented the birth of the mother, right?
Or God could have prevented whatever happened in that poor ladies life that drove her to thinking that cooking her child was an option in her horrific life?
God could have prevented all that right?
In fact, to spare Us all of the horrific world we live in, God could have just prevented the existence of Man.
But why stop there?
Animals suffer too, then God could have prevented ALL that by simply preventing LIFE from happening.
So simple really.
And yet...
He choose to create, to instill in Us the understanding of Good and evil so that WE can take responsibility for OUR actions.
You see, that woman that killed the baby or sold her daughter, she wasn't alone in what she did, WE are all responsible for that.
WE who created this world in OUR image, WE who made society in OUR image, WE who permit that killing is a viable option, WE that permit that people have a replaceable value, that some people are more valuabel thna others because of where they are born or how much money they have.
WE are the problem, why?
Because WE want God to fix what WE broke BUT under OUR conditions.
Or we don't believe in God under the conditions that He is now what WE think He Should be.

[RickD]

From:http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil

When we comprehend His sacrifice and His love for us, this puts the problem of evil in an entirely different perspective. For now we see clearly that the true problem of evil is the problem of our evil. Filled with sin and morally guilty before God, the question we face is not how God can justify Himself to us, but how we can be justified before Him.

So paradoxically, even though the problem of evil is the greatest objection to the existence of God, at the end of the day God is the only solution to the problem of evil. If God does not exist, then we are lost without hope in a life filled with gratuitous and unredeemed suffering. God is the final answer to the problem of evil, for He redeems us from evil and takes us into the everlasting joy of an incommensurable good, fellowship with Himself.

[1over137]

lover I have read the 4 gospels more times than I can count. They are actually my favorite books in the entire bible. The problem is that once I thought I was reading about an actual person and reading his actual words but now I dont feel that to be the case. Also the purpose of the prophets or apostles was to guide people toward Jesus. Why should that stop just because we have the bible? I say again that in this era of technology and science, people need more than a book thats hundreds of years old and filled with contradictions. The bible may have been great during the middle ages when most people probably couldnt read and superstition was a way of life, but in this day and age where people are not as superstitious as they were in those days, the bible is nothing but a relic of ancient and ignorant times. If God exists, he needs a better way to lead people to him now.

Then I suggest you read it again and realizing how hard times were 2000 years ago. How cruel people were and so.

You ask why should guiding peole toward Jesus stop after having bible with gospels? Jesus said what he said. He taught people and his words are written down. What else you want? Speaking directly to Jesus and listening the same stuff from him?

Christians nowadays guide people towards Jesus too. They point to Bible. What else should they do?

Bible is great also nowadays. Just go through all the wisdoms there.

[jlay]

lover I have read the 4 gospels more times than I can count. They are actually my favorite books in the entire bible. The problem is that once I thought I was reading about an actual person and reading his actual words but now I dont feel that to be the case. Also the purpose of the prophets or apostles was to guide people toward Jesus. Why should that stop just because we have the bible? I say again that in this era of technology and science, people need more than a book thats hundreds of years old and filled with contradictions. The bible may have been great during the middle ages when most people probably couldnt read and superstition was a way of life, but in this day and age where people are not as superstitious as they were in those days, the bible is nothing but a relic of ancient and ignorant times. If God exists, he needs a better way to lead people to him now.

People are as superstitious as they've ever been.
Some of the brightest minds in the world are Hindu and Muslim.
I understand that you're frustrated with the answers or lack thereof. But you have to also consider that what we see from you are the exact same objections. You employ chronological snobbery and you seem completely closed minded to any explanation dealing with the apparent contradictions and difficulties in the Bible.

[MAGSolo]

Let me ask you a very specific question. I posted earlier about the baby that was cooked to death in the oven by his mother. What good do you think came of that?
Here http://www.wral.com/more-charges-filed- ... /12101787/
A five year old girl is sold by her mother to a guy that uses her for his sexual fulfillment and then kills her. five years old and she was sold by her mother, raped, and killed. Tell me what good you think came out of that?

Those are very hard questions to answer and, of course, you know that and that is why you picked such horrific examples.
And rightly so because, like you, I am very aware of the world we live in, perhaps more so.
If I were to tell you of the atrocities I saw in my time in Bosnia, well...
You answer would have been to Kill those people before they did that.
There are no guarantees that God coming to them would make them stop it, and the only 100% sure way to stop anyone from committing a crime is to kill them before they do it, any other way leaves open the possibility of it happening, no matter how small.
So, I myself have asked God WHY, oh WHY does He permit such things to happen, why does he NOT interfere ( because that is exactly what He would be doing, interfering in the order of things).
He used to, I mean the flood, the Egyptians, He killed people all the time right?
Of course those are the things He gets accused of being a genocidal murder for, so...
But WHY listen to us? why listen to our accusations of Him? Why not ignore Us and rule over us with His "iron will" and kill those that are to commit such things? heck, why not keep them from being born?
Look at the case of the mother that cooked her baby, God could have prevented the birth of the baby, heck God could have prevented the birth of the mother, right?
Or God could have prevented whatever happened in that poor ladies life that drove her to thinking that cooking her child was an option in her horrific life?
God could have prevented all that right?
In fact, to spare Us all of the horrific world we live in, God could have just prevented the existence of Man.
But why stop there?
Animals suffer too, then God could have prevented ALL that by simply preventing LIFE from happening.
So simple really.
And yet...
He choose to create, to instill in Us the understanding of Good and evil so that WE can take responsibility for OUR actions.
You see, that woman that killed the baby or sold her daughter, she wasn't alone in what she did, WE are all responsible for that.
WE who created this world in OUR image, WE who made society in OUR image, WE who permit that killing is a viable option, WE that permit that people have a replaceable value, that some people are more valuabel thna others because of where they are born or how much money they have.
WE are the problem, why?
Because WE want God to fix what WE broke BUT under OUR conditions.
Or we don't believe in God under the conditions that He is now what WE think He Should be.

If God has perfect knowledge of the past, present, and future, then he knew that satan would rebel, knew he would tempt adam and eve and that disobey him, he knew the consequences and yet he still made the conscious choice to create Satan. I dont see how the terrible world we live in is anybodies fault except for Gods. God new satan would be the master of evil and yet chose to create him anyway, therefore God created evil.

[MAGSolo]

lover I have read the 4 gospels more times than I can count. They are actually my favorite books in the entire bible. The problem is that once I thought I was reading about an actual person and reading his actual words but now I dont feel that to be the case. Also the purpose of the prophets or apostles was to guide people toward Jesus. Why should that stop just because we have the bible? I say again that in this era of technology and science, people need more than a book thats hundreds of years old and filled with contradictions. The bible may have been great during the middle ages when most people probably couldnt read and superstition was a way of life, but in this day and age where people are not as superstitious as they were in those days, the bible is nothing but a relic of ancient and ignorant times. If God exists, he needs a better way to lead people to him now.

People are as superstitious as they've ever been.
Some of the brightest minds in the world are Hindu and Muslim.
I understand that you're frustrated with the answers or lack thereof. But you have to also consider that what we see from you are the exact same objections. You employ chronological snobbery and you seem completely closed minded to any explanation dealing with the apparent contradictions and difficulties in the Bible.

Nope, people are not as superstitious as they have ever been. Atheism/agnosticism is growing rapidly in developed, civilized, educated societies. In this country and places like Europe, church attendance is down and decreasing on an annual basis and belief in God and the supernatural in general is dissipating as people become more and more educated. There are certainly far more atheists and agnostics today then there were even just 30 or 40 years ago. Almost all muslim societies are mostly poor and underdeveloped. In most muslim nations the majority of people live in poverty and they are nowhere near as educated as people in developed countries. Look at any index that ranks countries by education, wealth, health, life expectancy and so forth, and you will see that no muslim country ranks particularly high.